# Anyone else bored by "The Matrix"'s hand-to-hand fight scenes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153 "2003-05-19T01:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/21 "2003-05-19T07:26:46Z")
Think of this: with a projectile you can determine speed and direction just by the way the nozzle is pointed. If you have fast enough reflexes you can dodge it. Computers were originally designed to caluculate projectiles. In hand to hand combat, you can be hit in several different places from several part of the body, which makes it less predictable. In _Game of Death_, as mentioned before, Bruce Lee was working on his psychology and philosophy of fighting. not using poetics either (I’m a wannabe poet, and I think terms like Little Grasshopper and snatching the coin out of the master’s hand are a bit cliche). The only show that comes close to fighting theory is ironically enough, the card game show Yu-gi-Oh! ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/22 "2003-05-19T08:05:54Z")
So, would you guys say the fights are worse than in the first, or are you just bored because it’s more of the same? Personally, I’ve seen quite a few KF movies and consequently found the fights in the first movie extremely lame. The actors just werent’t good enough to pull off anything very interesting. They look and sound like grade school slap-fights. ---
**Author:** ![pcarney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ea5d25/32.png) [@pcarney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pcarney)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/23 "2003-05-19T13:42:15Z")
I thought the fight scenes were pretty good, actually. I liked most of the ‘Burly Brawl’ as they called it (the one with 50 Smiths), although it occasionally looked like a video game. I really liked the weapons stuff in it as well. Have I seen better? Hells ya. Forget Jackie Chan for a moment and check out Fist of Legend with Jet Li. Some of the greatest fights on film in that flick. But I still think Yuen Pin Wu (or whatever his name is) is a great fight choreographer, who did a good job with his source material (that is, non-martial artists). BTW- I’ve been studying martial arts for many a year, but I never let that get in the way of enjoying a good fight scene. Yes, alot of what goes on is absurd, unrealistic, etc, but its a movie, enjoy it as such. And I see why you would ask ‘why do computers fight hand to hand?’ and the anwer- because its cool! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/24 "2003-05-19T14:05:53Z")
I’m not planning on watching the movie, yet I’m bored just by the few fight scenes I’ve had to endure in the trailer. Even they look horrible contrived as the response is initiated simultaneously with the attack. Jeez, at least try and make it look like something other than synchronized swimming. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/25 "2003-05-19T14:12:36Z")
I’m not planning on watching the movie, yet I’m bored just by the few fight scenes I’ve had to endure in the trailer. Even they look horrible contrived as the response is initiated simultaneously with the attack. Jeez, at least try and make it look like something other than synchronized swimming. ---
**Author:** ![irkenDoom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c2a13f/32.png) [@irkenDoom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irkenDoom)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/26 "2003-05-19T16:17:09Z")
It wasn’t just the contrived fighting sequences that bothered me, it was also the gratuitous use of wacky camera angles and slow-motion. I thought that slow-motion should be used at a pivotal point in a fight scene, or at the end. For something important, you know. But they threw the slo-mo in each scene so many times, it lost all meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/27 "2003-05-19T17:57:09Z")
I’m with you **irkenDoom** too much slowing down and speeding up for no reason. It’s not that critical to watch Neo block another punch when we’re quite aware that he can do that easily. It just ended up making those scenes go on forever. “Just because a little wire-fu is good, doesn’t mean a metric asston is better” I was heard to say as I left the theater. Basically, the fights were… “yawn.” There were no totally sweet new moves that blew me away. Just the same ol’ same ol’, fight after fight. Two dudes fight. Neo wins. Huzzah! For the record, I am a non-martial-arts-expert girl. Actually I find Bruce Lee a little boring cause the man _never_ took a hit. I guess I like a little ass-kicking in my ass-kicking, if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/28 "2003-05-20T05:36:12Z")
One thing that irritated me… The agents were quick enough to dodge bullets, but not quick enough to move out of the way of punches and kicks? ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/29 "2003-05-20T10:13:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HubZilla \* > \*\*One thing that irritated me… > > The agents were quick enough to dodge bullets, but not quick enough to move out of the way of punches and kicks? \*\* Yup! The entire point of the extended fight scenes is that everyone involved can move faster than bullets, so they can all dodge bullets but they can’t dodge someone hitting them. My only major beef with the film is that I’m disappointed is how fake the cg people looked. I was really hoping to be fooled after reading that wired article about how much detail went into it. Either computers are never going to simulate humans right or the tech to do so isn’t going to be around for a long time. But it’s also prematurely aged the effects I think. The bullet dodging scene from the first movie still looks real, the cg bits in the fights and flying already look fake. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/30 "2003-05-20T16:26:22Z")
The faces in the big brawl looked less and less real as the fight wore on. But what really irritated me was the pointlessness of the fight. Yes, it was an homage to the massive fight scenes of the HK film world, but in those films dozens of opponents are left dead or unconscious. Here we had 101 people who looked like they just picked up their dry cleaning. I was also annoyed with the Ghost Twins using a straight razor. C’mon, I shave with one of those things. It’s the _last_ thing anyone would use in a fight, because the hinge is so wonky and doesn’t lock. ---
**Author:** ![Peg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Peg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peg)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/31 "2003-05-20T22:06:16Z")
I am not a big fan of watching hand-to-hand combat scenes in movies (or on the streets), but I thought the ones in the original Matrix were alright & interesting, even. In Reloaded… well, I thought there were too many fight scenes & they didn’t really serve much of a purpose, plotwise. Does _every body_ in Matrix-world know martial arts? When you turn 5, are you automatically enrolled in Kick Ass Gymboree class? All I know is that during that Burly Brawl (or whatever) scene, certain shots of Keanu clearly did not look like Keanu. I figure they could have fixed this in post-production. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/32 "2003-05-20T22:30:56Z")
> [@](#): > > In Reloaded… well, I thought there were too many fight scenes & they didn’t really serve much of a purpose, plotwise. Does every body in Matrix-world know martial arts? When you turn 5, are you automatically enrolled in Kick Ass Gymboree class? All I know is that during that Burly Brawl (or whatever) scene, certain shots of Keanu clearly did not look like Keanu. I figure they could have fixed this in post-production. Pretty much, yeah. Remember from the first one, when they plug the newly awakened Keanu into the learning machine and just download a bunch of martial arts moves into his brain? If you could become a black belt in fifteen different forms of kung fu in less than thirty seconds, wouldn’t you do it? As for the fight scenes not serving a purpose, I thought the fight scenes were the entire point of the movie. I sure as hell didn’t pay ten bucks for the _plot_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/33 "2003-05-23T23:28:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peg \* > Does _every body_ in Matrix-world know martial arts? When you turn 5, are you automatically enrolled in Kick Ass Gymboree class? Well, the first movie showed Neo assimilating kung-fu in about ten seconds flat, so how hard could it be to make sure all the Matrix-running humans have extensive knowledge of weapons, driving and martial arts? ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/34 "2003-05-24T02:50:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*… so how hard could it be to make sure all the Matrix-running humans have extensive knowledge of weapons, driving and martial arts? \*\* This reminded me of something, if I may do a little hijacking here… Is it just me, or was there a whole lot less killing in _Reloaded_ than in the first _Matrix_? In the first scene of the first movie, Trinity kills, or at least maims, most of the policemen. Then, of course, there’s the huge lobby shoot-out where again, they’re killing people. Now certainly there are several scenes in _Reloaded_ where people could potentially have died, like the big explosions, the car chase, and yes, the Keymaker did die. But all the gunplay, all the necessity of killing (because anyone can become an Agent) is replaced with endless Kung-Fu fighting now? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/35 "2003-05-24T03:11:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by av8rmike \* > But all the gunplay, all the necessity of killing (because anyone can become an Agent) is replaced with endless Kung-Fu fighting now? Interestingly, this movie (like the first) doesn’t explain what happens to the humans who get “overwritten” by agents. Even if you don’t count Smith’s odd virus-like actions, it’s never clear what happens when an agent releases a body it no longer needs. If the body has suffered lethal damage, it just lies there dead (as the rooftop guard does after Trinity shoots an Agent in the forehead) but what about when an Agent skips ahead, grabbing people as he needs them (as in the Chinatown chase in _Matrix_ and the highway chase in _Reloaded_)? Do the released people return to their normal routine with a short memory gap or has their original code been lost forever? When the hundreds of Agent Smiths walk away after the (rather pointless) bout with Neo, what happens? If there’s no way for a Smith-copy to “release”, doesn’t that mean Smith could take over the entire Matrix, given enough time to assimilate everyone in sight? A simple geometric progression and he could assimilate millions of people in just a few days. As for indestructable Agents, it’s similar to killing endless robots in _Phantom Menace_ or a _G.I. Joe_ cartoon. Violence without blood or repercussions. It’s the American thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Dracul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/50afbb/32.png) [@Vlad\_Dracul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Dracul)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/36 "2003-05-24T03:45:28Z")
The trend into “unbelieveable but cool” fighting destroys my suspension of disbelief, making me have to WORK to care about the events on screen. What’s “unbelievable”? Well, every REAL fight I’ve ever watched or participated in has had the following characteristics: ``` 1. It's usually decided almost immediately. (Somebody lands a good blow, follows up quickly, and it becomes a simple beating.) 2. Blocking fails. (I've never seen or heard of ANYONE who could block ALL the strikes of an aggressive attacker. Maybe the telegraphed first one, but after that... everything lands.) 3. Nothing fancy. (Even the serious martial arts people lapse into constant repitition of two or three basic moves once the fight gets going.) 4. The guy with the weapon usually wins. ``` My favorite fight scenes are the ones where a character wins quickly, with no great effort, by blatant cheating. Throw your hot coffee in his face and smash the pot over his head! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/37 "2003-05-24T04:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\* > As for indestructable Agents, it’s similar to killing endless robots in _Phantom Menace_ or a _G.I. Joe_ cartoon. Violence without blood or repercussions. > \*\* I thought in the original movie that they could have made a good sub-plot out of that – every time they kill an agent they’ve killed a human plugged in to the Matrix and only mildly deterred the agent. It was the main reason I didn’t really like the Matrix when I first saw it (subsequent viewings got past that). ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/38 "2003-05-24T05:27:37Z")
Actually, “telegraphing” is usually a much more subtle problem than seeing someone throwing their entire weight behind a punch. It’s seeing them DECIDE to punch, before they actually do, by watching for muscles tensing up, shoulders dropping, and so on. That’s why any decent martial arts training you have to learn how to do a move EXACTLY right: because it’s designed to be a very particular motion that one can do with minimal telegraphing. I wasn’t overly bored with the fights, but they really lacked the suspense and urgency of the first movie. All the fights in those movies really had something at stake. Too many here just did not. There were some really great ideas, but there was no real suspense to them, and suspense is what makes a good fight scene. That said, I did like where this movie took the plot quite a bit, though I VERY much fear that the third movie is going to lame out on us with some cheap message about the importance of choice, yadda yadda yadda. ---
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/39 "2003-05-24T07:24:47Z")
I can understand why Neo could kick such major ass and show no effort. Doesn’t anyone remember that he sees things in the Matrix as code and can see whats coming up next because of that? They have shown him do this several times. Anyway, I thought the Smiths fight was fun to watch, but as the movie went on I got tired of all the fist fights. I never understood why Neo, or anyone, bothered fist fighting agents. Why not just run away? or fly like Neo? The only time I really felt bored was when he took on the guards after getting the keymaker. As soon as they entered the room I was like “Shit. Im going to the bathroom”. The ghost twins were cool though. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/40 "2003-05-24T16:21:41Z")
It’s interesting to compare the two Matrix movies. In the first movie, every fight scene had a clear purpose–it was either there to introduce how the Matrix works, or it was directly related to the plot. In Reloaded, both of the big Agent Smith fights were pure filler–they had no purpose except to remind people the Agent Smith was Up To Something and he’d be back in movie three. The testing-Neo fight was also filler, because we in the audience know perfectly well he’s really Neo. The freeway scene ought to have been important, but we were never shown enough about the Keymaster (whatever) to really care about his fate; the fact that the agents kept going on about how Morpheus and Trinity were unimportant meant we never really worried about them either. And the ending of the sequence was (literally!) deus ex machina, underscoring how just how little danger Lois … I mean Trinity and Morpheus were really in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153.md?page=3)