# Anyone else bored by "The Matrix"'s hand-to-hand fight scenes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 19, 2003, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153 "2003-05-19T01:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/41 "2003-05-24T16:38:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stinkpalm \* > Anyway, I thought the Smiths fight was fun to watch, but as the movie went on I got tired of all the fist fights. I never understood why Neo, or anyone, bothered fist fighting agents. Why not just run away? or fly like Neo? Hmm, I don’t recall anyone other than Neo and Morpheus squaring off with Agents in this movie and even Trinity got her ass kicked. They established in the first movie that everyone who tried this died (thus, Morpheus attacking Smith becomes extra heroic becuase he has no chance and is only giving the others a chance to slide down the wall and escape). Morpheus vs. the Agent on top of the 18-wheeler was more like two kids playing “King of the Mountain” than a death-struggle. The promos implied the Rastas _were_ agents (Neo’s “Upgrades” comment always went with footage of the Rastas) which I find kind of annoying in retrospect. Even the Rastas seemed helpless against the Agents. Apparantly no-one else can fly the way Neo does, which makes the skepticism of the other humans odd (i.e. they don’t believe as Morpheus does in “The One”). Surely Neo could have staged demonstrations of his abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/42 "2003-05-24T17:02:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hello Again \* > \*\* > For the record, I am a non-martial-arts-expert girl. Actually I find Bruce Lee a little boring cause the man _never_ took a hit. > \*\* This would be why he usually won, in the movies and real life. Only in Hollywood can somebody get punched 100 times (like in _Rocky_) and still be alive, much less standing. ---
**Author:** ![Purd\_Werfect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47c2d/32.png) [@Purd\_Werfect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Purd_Werfect)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/43 "2003-05-24T17:19:13Z")
The fighting was more over the top in this one, but I can imagine the folks working on the fight scenes asking themselves how the hell they were going to top the first movie, which really appeared fresh at the time. If you’re looking for interesting fight scenes, you might want to check out Equilibrium. Excellent choreography. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/44 "2003-05-24T17:24:22Z")
From which we conclude all boxing matches end in a KOs in round 2 … ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/45 "2003-05-24T17:43:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > … **what bothered me was the poor screenwriting in choosing to allow the fight scenes to drag on without adding anything new.** Sounds more like poor directing/editing. ---
**Author:** ![Vlad\_Dracul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/50afbb/32.png) [@Vlad\_Dracul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vlad_Dracul)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/46 "2003-05-24T19:12:10Z")
Wumpus… Back in the days of bare-knuckle boxing, matches typically ended very quickly… often with one guy on the floor with a broken jaw, and the other on the ropes with a broken hand. The boxing glove was invented by the promoters to make the matches longer, and thus better entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/47 "2003-05-25T01:00:50Z")
My prediction for _The Matrix Revolutions_: I hate it when they turn Agent Smith into a good guy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![owlofcreamcheese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@owlofcreamcheese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlofcreamcheese)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/48 "2003-05-25T01:34:21Z")
the logic “I hate fight scenes, lets go watch matrix” boggles my mind. why… why would you see such a movie if you knew you didn’t like watching fighting? ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/49 "2003-05-25T02:10:09Z")
Vlad … Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn’t. The vast majority of bare-knuckles fighter John L. Sullivan’s bouts did last fewer than four rounds. But then there were the epic fights that lasted 21 or 35 or 79 (!) rounds: [http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/6525/JohnLSullivan.htm](http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/6525/JohnLSullivan.htm) (Browse around the site for other bare-knuckles boxers and 2 hour + fights.) So were marathon bare knuckle fights rare? Yes. Impossible? Far from it. Mind you, this discussion of real fighting has nothing to do with why Bruce Lee never got hit in the movies. The answer to that is simply, “the storyteller said so!” Movie fights have their own conventions that are only tangentally related to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/50 "2003-05-25T02:13:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wumpus \* > Vlad … Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn’t. The vast majority of bare-knuckles fighter John L. Sullivan’s bouts did last fewer than four rounds. But then there were the epic fights that lasted 21 or 35 or 79 (!) rounds: Well, back then, if the fight lasted less than 50 rounds, the crowd demanded their nickel back. ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/51 "2003-05-25T02:30:08Z")
For some reason, I’m reminded of Alexander the Great’s victories at Granicus and Issus. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/52 "2003-05-25T05:52:50Z")
I’m reminded of Darmok and Jilad’s victory at Tanagra. ---
**Author:** ![sickboy51](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sickboy51](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sickboy51)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/53 "2003-05-25T18:06:22Z")
Well, the fight against the Smiths´agents (is spelled that way?) was quite boring for me due to the time it took, too much if you ask me. I enjoy Bruce Lee movies and Jackie Chan too (the old ones, over all, back in Hong Kong), I´m a real fan of those two, but still I think Bruce Lee cuold have benn hitted a couple of times more in his movies (to make them more interesting) or fight to an opponent who were a really trheat. you see, in Lee´s movies he never seems to be in real danger, his opponents seem always to be much less skilled to be a real macht. In chan´s movies happens, more or less, the same, apart form some exceptions. Also if you ever watched Buffy, in most fights they block hits before they´re thorwn, quite annoying. By the way, Matrix Reloaded fights seemed more a dance than real fights, like those chinese traditional shows. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/54 "2003-05-25T18:34:09Z")
Bruce Lee did get slashed up pretty good in the hall-of-mirrors fight at the end of _Enter the Dragon_. But the parody film _Fistful of Yen_ was still more entertaining. Jackie Chan’s fights at least have more of an air of desperation around them, as if he’s defeating these guys not because he’s super-mega-untouchable-cool (like Lee) but because he’s constantly on the verge of panic, grabbing a mop and swinging it wildly. The fact that it hits four guys in the head is just lucky timing. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/55 "2003-05-25T18:35:54Z")
Regarding why everyone uses martial arts techniques: Fighting with other weapons is pointless, because those weapons have well-defined properties. Enlightened individuals can alter the workings of the program, but it’s a whole lot easier to change your “personal” representation within the Matrix than that of other things. If you’ll notice, there are very few times in either of the movies where Neo directly alters the properties of external objects – when he stops bullets in flight and when he performs psychic surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Anal\_Scurvy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c57346/32.png) [@Anal\_Scurvy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anal_Scurvy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/56 "2003-05-25T21:27:03Z")
Okay, here’s my take as someone who’s studied martial arts for years now. The first Matrix fired me up in the combat scenes, something that is really rare. Most hand to hand combat in movies looks silly to me because: if the fighters were equals, we would see nothing fancy; if one of the fighters were inferior, the fight would last a handful of seconds. Something that would make martial arts fight scenes interesting again, to me, is to toss out the same choreographers time after time and find someone who can pull together realism and techniques previously unseen on screen. The best example I can think of is that many arts (Filipino arts, Muay Thai, some styles of Kung Fu) have destructive blocks. I have never seen these in a flick, let alone utilized in a breathtaking manner. I think it’s about time. And there total worlds of fighting techniques that the average person has never seen, but are less cartoonish than the same, sorry back-and-forth exchanges we see right now. These exchanges are beautifully choreographed ballets and at one time were pretty cool, but nothing new is happening with them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/57 "2003-05-25T23:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bryan Eckers_ > The promos implied the Rastas were agents (Neo’s “Upgrades” comment always went with footage of the Rastas) which I find kind of annoying in retrospect. Even the Rastas seemed helpless against the Agents. Actually, it’s implied that they were agents, but older ones, not newer ones. I think all the Merovingian’s guards were obsolete agents from older versions of the Matrix. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/58 "2003-05-26T07:07:03Z")
I realised today why I don’t like this movie. It’s one long piece of exposition, regularly interrupted by inconsequential and less-than-exhilirating fight scenes. And in the end, the whole movie doesn’t progress anything in the story apart from introduction of new characters. I stand aghast at it’s popularity. It doesn’t deserve it. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/59 "2003-05-26T13:11:45Z")
I got bored. The main reason is that we already know that no-one is going to kick Neo’s ass, because the story more or less hinges on him being able to beat anyone up, including agents, and that Morpheus isn’t going to kick an agent’s ass, 'cause that would also screw up the story. So there’s never any suspense. Also, as has been said before: why didn’t Neo just fly away from the 100 Smiths? If I could fly, I’d be flying right now, _just in case an agent were to show up_, but Neo stays grounded until he’s been fighting for ten boring minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153/60 "2003-05-31T04:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Actually, it’s implied that they were agents, but older ones, not newer ones. I think all the Merovingian’s guards were obsolete agents from older versions of the Matrix. \*\* It may be implied _in the movie_ that the Rastas are obsolete Agents (though I didn’t pick up on that myself and the character roles were so ill-defined that anything can imply anything) but I was referring to the _trailer_, one of which had the following sequence, cobbled together from various moments in the movie: - White Rastas appear, “ghost” out. - Trinity saying “That’s a nice trick” - Rasta whipping a knife around - Neo saying “Upgrades.” It’s a momentary shot, but this is from the early scene where he tries to punch a conventional black-suited Agent and the Agent catches Neo’s fist. - Rasta phasing out of a car, lunging at camera - Rasta phases into another car, attacking Trinity and Morpheus. -The next shot is of Smith, and is a clear break from the previous action. To me, the use of the word “upgrades” in the middle of a showcase of Rasta scenes suggested the Rastas were, in fact, upgraded Agents. That they turn out to be mildly interesting but otherwise generic henchmen/thugs is somewhat annoying. Besides, how could you quote me and spell my name wrong? This has always mystified me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-by-the-matrix-s-hand-to-hand-fight-scenes/176153.md?page=4)