# Anyone else bored to death of grammar questions? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 17, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415 "2001-03-17T22:20:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ModernRonin2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@ModernRonin2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernRonin2)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/1 "2001-03-17T22:20:02Z")
If I see one more question about the proper use of this, that or the other English word, I swear to god I’m going to hurt somone. Please, PLEASE, for the love of god, make the grammar questions stop! -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/2 "2001-03-17T22:40:03Z")
As the OP is a rant, it would be better served in The BBQ Pit. I’m sure **Spanky** (called **Arnold** by the rest of the civilised universe) would be glad to ship it down there, unless he closes it. Friendly reminder: Read the forum descriptions before you make a new thread. Using the serch feature is also smiled upon here. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/3 "2001-03-17T22:51:19Z")
The column in question is [“Is ‘different than’ bad grammar’?”](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010316.html) It’s a rant, but since it’s about a column, I guess it does belong here. Now, **ModernRonin2** , what is it you don’t like about grammar questions that you like about, say, questions about physics, biology, medicine, or anthropology? ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/4 "2001-03-17T22:51:56Z")
As the OP appears to be commenting specifically about this column by Cecil, [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010316.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010316.html) I think it’s appropriate for this forum. Don’t seem to me that Cecil has had a preponderance of grammar columns lately, though. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/5 "2001-03-17T22:52:59Z")
Jinx, you owe me a Coke, Dan. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/6 "2001-03-17T23:03:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JillGat \* > \*\*_Don’t_ seem to me that Cecil has had a preponderance of grammar columns lately, though. \*\* (Italics mine) Heh. I have a strong feeling you typed that with a certain devious intent, **Jill**! Oh, and I’ll be happy to give you a Coke (or any beverage of your choice). I’m in the DC/Baltimore area. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/7 "2001-03-17T23:06:26Z")
OK, I was wrong. But since the OP didn’t provide any links, I thought he might just have easily been commenting on the grammar questions here in CoCC or in the world in general. In which case it would have been a rant and therefore belonging in The Pit with Bodoni and Her cohorts. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/8 "2001-03-17T23:39:42Z")
I can’t think of many other recent SD columns about grammar unless you count the ones about foreign languages (Eskimo snow, lorem ipsum, Chinese crisis). Cecil does handle grammar questions occasionally (for example [Is “whether or not” good grammar?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a941202.html) ), but I don’t think it’s excessive. ---
**Author:** ![ModernRonin2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c37758/32.png) [@ModernRonin2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernRonin2)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/9 "2001-03-18T00:18:48Z")
- Now, ModernRonin2, what is it you don’t like about grammar questions that you like about, say, questions about physics, biology, medicine, or anthropology? \* Excellent question! Basically, I feel that language is essentially arbitrary. The philosophical foundations of this belief are longer than I want to bore you with, but suffice it to say that any “answer” to a grammar question is essentially an arbitrary choice that is “correct” only because some critical mass of people have agreed it is correct. We could certanly all agree that from now on, 2 + 2 = 5, and the way you count is “1, 2, 3, 5, 4, 6, 7” etc… Re-print all the math text books, teach kids the new way, adopt it ourselves, and kaboom - 2 + 2 = 5. But there’s nothing interesting or special in an arbitrary definition. It’s trivia, nothing more. Useful trivia, perhaps, but still trivia. And I do not consider bickering over the fine points of trivial matters to be interesting. And to me grammar questions are the quintessential example of pointless bickering over trivia. On a side note, I didn’t mean to imply that there were a lot of columns on grammar - I don’t think there have been. This most recent column is about the third one I remember. I just wanted to express my own feelings that three columns on grammar in the time I’ve been reading the SD is two too many. (A single column would be okay - it’s fun to wallow in trivia occasionally.) Again, just my opinion. Oh yeah, I’m not sure whether my opinion matters on this or not, but I think it’d be perfectly fair to move this thread to the BBQ Pit. I have no objection to that. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/10 "2001-03-18T00:35:50Z")
Question: Do you type your posts into a different application, like Notepad, then paste them into the “Post Reply” box? Because your post seems a tad… um… skinny. 🙂 In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63760), there’s a debate about this very subject. It would probably be best for the board if you joined that particular discussion rather than continue it here, in the interests of saving space. I daresay it won’t be moved to The Pit, because neither you nor I have used any profanity! But it will get closed/moved (or we’ll get yelled at) if we have a debate in here over it. In fact, unless you have a distinct beef about a specific column - and not the issue of grammar in general - I’d say save those comments for the IMHO or GD fora. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/11 "2001-03-18T03:45:16Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, and thank you for posting your comment. Please include a link to Cecil’s column if it’s on the straight dope web site. To include a link, it can be as simple as including the web page location in your post (make sure there is a space **before** and **after** the text of the URL). Cecil’s column can be found on-line at the link provided by dantheman and JillGat, in a neck-to-neck race. * * * moderator, «[**Comments on Cecil’s Columns**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)» ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/12 "2001-03-18T03:48:20Z")
As far as this OP goes, I think that since it’s talking about a Straight Dope column, it will be allowed to live in here. On the other hand, references to the name “Spanky” are to be avoided. That’s Derleth’s and my little private secret. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/13 "2001-03-18T04:13:28Z")
I don’t mean to be presumptuous, **Arnold** , but is it sensible to have the same debate going on in two fora? I can understand it for such huge debates as abortion and creationism versus evolution where there might be several differing viewpoints, but for a comparitively minor topic such as English grammar, wouldn’t it just be redundant and repetitive? ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/14 "2001-03-18T05:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ModernRonin2 \* > **Excellent question! Basically, I feel that language is > essentially arbitrary. The philosophical foundations of > this belief are longer than I want to bore you with, but > suffice it to say that any “answer” to a grammar question > is essentially an arbitrary choice that is “correct” only > because some critical mass of people have agreed it is > correct.** We’re probably beating a caballo muerto here, but I think ModernRonin’s comments about the arbitrariness of grammar are appropriate in this forum and about this column, even if this topic is being discussed. The English language varies wildly from one English-speaking country to another obviously, and language and grammar evolve and change with time. As soon as “alot” and “irregardless” become acceptable, though, I’m moving to another primary language. And I’ve probably screwed up some word or comma in this message, so sue me. - Jill (edited to fix post formatting) [Edited by Arnold Winkelried on 03-18-2001 at 10:37 AM] ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/15 "2001-03-18T05:38:18Z")
ps - I prefer “forums” to “fora.” pffffftttt!! ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/16 "2001-03-18T05:40:34Z")
[[even if this topic is being discussed]] I meant to add “elsewhere” there. Jeez. You better buy me a martini instead of a Coke, Dan. At least when I was a frigging moderator I could edit these things! ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/17 "2001-03-18T06:05:35Z")
Ok, ok, ok… Yes, there are no completely hard-and-fast rules about language. It’s a dynamic field, changing sometimes frequently, sometimes over a period of several generations. > [@](#): > > Basically, I feel that language is > essentially arbitrary. The philosophical foundations of > this belief are longer than I want to bore you with, but > suffice it to say that any “answer” to a grammar question > is essentially an arbitrary choice that is “correct” only > because some critical mass of people have agreed it is > correct. Yes, that’s right. But there are some crucial words in your thoughts there: “critical mass” and “arbitrary.” Yes, it’s arbitrary. The language changes with the needs and the culture of its users. Words became inappropriate over time because of evolving lifestyles, and others were formed to take their places. But this is probably one of the studies that most exemplifies humanity. Think of it. Man is ruled by science; he cannot alter Avogadro’s number or Planck’s constant. But language? Language is his own son, born of his own blood and toil. Man created language; he is no slave to it. He can bend it to his own will, and does when the time and need warrant it. To you and others, it may seem that there’s no real need for grammar and its presumably loose rules. Why have them if you’re only going to change them, you wonder? Think of it as a sliding rule. In science, Man slides forward, gaining knowledge as usual, but science itself stands firm - it will not move for Man. However, in language, it is Man who is firm, and language itself that moves when Man wishes it to. If you’re in the 16th century, then get out your “thees” and “thous”; if you’re in the 20th century, get out your “yous.” Language changes because we want it to, and we want it to because that’s how our species is evolving. After all, it’s not as if a circle of evil wizards looks at the old rules, tosses them aside, and collectively says, “We’ll change everything! All that was wrong now is right!” [Aside to Jill: that’s ok, we loves ya anyways!] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Man\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c2a13f/32.png) [@The\_Man\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Man_Who)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/18 "2001-03-18T16:38:39Z")
Cecil himself answers the implied question of the original poster in the column linked above by bibliophage: “I love grammar questions, because they give everybody a chance to get passionate about a matter of no consequence, without resort to firearms. They should try this system in the Balkans.” Now, let’s debate whether or not I used “implied” correctly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/19 "2001-03-18T16:40:51Z")
dantheman, either you’re using the wrong terms or else I don’t understand what you’re saying. The discussion right now is not in two fora, it’s in two threads in the same forum, namely this one. If I moved the thread to another forum like IMHO or MPSIMS or The BBQ Pit, then we would have a discussion of grammar issues in two different fora. In any case, I don’t have a rule that says you should not have two current threads discussing the same column. * * * moderator, «[**Comments on Cecil’s Columns**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1)» ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2001, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415/20 "2001-03-18T17:03:02Z")
**Arnold** , I didn’t see the second thread in this forum. My fault. I don’t see any problem with having two threads discussing the same topic in the same forum, not at all. The thread I meant is in IMHO. [Is grammar fixed and if not, should we teach it in schools?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63760). The OP in this thread dealt more with grammar in general than with the grammar issue raised in the cited column. The IMHO thread also discusses grammar in general (particularly, the issue of its relevancy). These are the two threads I meant. 🙂 Sorry for the confusion! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-bored-to-death-of-grammar-questions/58415.md?page=2)