# Anyone else confused by the emotion over Queen Elizabeth's passing? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 9, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275 "2022-09-09T16:57:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/121 "2022-09-12T02:35:45Z")
> [@saje](#): > > I am glad her death was apparently quick Well, it took 96 years. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/122 "2022-09-12T09:00:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Gee, is it possible that when you described her as “a rich old white lady who was given everything” you meant something different? 🙄 Attributing a lack of empathy to jealousy is a mistake only an incompetent could make. I may be an asshole but you have to live with that. I wasn’t happy she was dead or sad she was dead. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/123 "2022-09-12T09:09:31Z")
I see. So we can assume that if she had been “a poor old black lady who had to work hard for everything she had”, you would have felt exactly the same way. In which case, one wonders about the relevance of the snark about “a rich old white lady who was given everything”. Why was it so necessary to mention it in a post about why you lack empathy? You said it. I just highlighted it. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/124 "2022-09-12T09:14:20Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > “a poor old black lady who had to work hard for everything she had” I have more time and respect for that person. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/125 "2022-09-12T09:49:02Z")
I thought my original post was innocuous and was very surprised to have caused a fuss. It was not my intention at all. Sorry if I was too blunt or unfeeling. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/126 "2022-09-12T10:12:21Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Probably not enough, but she broke with the tradition of being apolitical by clashing with Thatcher that the UK should support sanctions on South Africa, not only because it was the moral thing to do, but specifically to support the commonwealth countries. > > While a small drop in the bucket, it did represent a huge shift from the policy of neutrality and was considered quite controversial at the time. [Here’s an article on it](https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a34764793/the-crown-queen-margaret-thatcher-feud-apartheid-sanctions/). If I’m understanding correctly: 1. She never spoke publicly in favor of sanctions or against Thatcher. 2. The closest she came was an unsourced leak from the palace expressing her “dismay.” 3. She apologized to Thatcher for the article because Thatcher’s poor feelings were so hurt. 4. The press secretary resigned. I suppose that might be enough to count as a drop in the bucket, but only barely a drop. She could instead have spoken publicly on this–or, better yet, against [British-run concentration camps in Kenya](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-49363653). She could have burned it all down, threatening to dissolve the monarchy if the nation couldn’t live up to basic humanitarian ideals. (She probably couldn’t have actually dissolved the monarchy, but her claim to have done so would have tainted it forever). She could have dedicated her life to _not_ being apolitical, instead of to supporting the imperial family. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/127 "2022-09-12T10:21:44Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > She could have dedicated her life to _not_ being apolitical, instead of to supporting the imperial family. The reality is that she could not actually have done any of the things you suggest without precipitating a constitutional crisis and putting the monarchy itself at risk. Being an impartial and completely apolitical head of state with the ability to exercise what are essentially emergency reserve powers is absolutely foundational to a constitutional monarchy and to its democratic underpinnings. The monarch is not just a random celebrity who can choose to be politically active if they feel like it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/128 "2022-09-12T10:26:23Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The reality is that she could not actually have done any of the things you suggest without precipitating a constitutional crisis and putting the monarchy itself at risk. Oh, pardon the expression, noes. If saving the monarchy means staying silent about concentration camps, burn that fuckin palace down. A constitutional crisis in a violent empire is a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/129 "2022-09-12T10:40:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > She could have dedicated her life to _not_ being apolitical, instead of to supporting the imperial family. As wolfpup has said, what you are saying literally breaks the British system of government. To people in most countries the British concept of something being “unconstitutional” is odd, because in the USA, Canada, South Africa, or wherever we’re mostly from, we have written Constitutions, and there are things that a person in the apparatus of state can try to do that those documents forbid. In the UK, the constitution is for the most part a very, very old set of arrangements everyone just agrees is how things must run. It’s just as important, though. If the monarch starts fucking around with government policy, that is just amazingly, incredibly bad. The British system of responsible government just cannot function that way (and the Commonwealth REALLY can’t function that way.) I get that Britain acted horribly in Kenya. But let’s look at the USA; the USA committed horrific war crimes in Cambodia. **The solution to that was not to break the government and the Constitution**. Collapsing the republic and American democracy isn’t a logical response to that; it would certainly have made America a worse place and likely the whole world. Should Joe Biden and Congress be overthrown for errors in foreign policy today? That is obviously not a wise approach, surely? But you’re suggesting that for the UK. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/130 "2022-09-12T10:40:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If saving the monarchy means staying silent about concentration camps, burn that fuckin palace down. And replace it with what? One of the things that frustrates me about some Americans opining about the monarchy is their failure to realize its important role in the whole system of government that we call “constitutional monarchy”. Some of them harbour such a deep misunderstanding that they even accuse citizens of Britain and the Commonwealth of being wimps who allow themselves to be “ruled” by a hereditary royalty. You’re basically accusing the Queen of protecting and upholding the norms of a long-established British political and cultural institution that is central to its form of government. You would prefer that she be some sort of radical anarchist instead. Well, she wasn’t. Instead she provided 70 years of steadfast moral leadership within the norms and traditions of the British monarchy, and the people of Britain and the Commonwealth countries are grateful for it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/131 "2022-09-12T10:43:00Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Instead she provided 70 years of steadfast moral leadership within the norms and traditions of the British monarchy, and the people of Britain and the Commonwealth countries are grateful for it. Entirely agreed, with the slight addition of “im” in front of “moral”. Maintaining the stability of a murderous regime is no virtue. One of the things that frustrates me about some Brits opining about the monarchy is their failure to realize just how awful the empire was. (And before you try to gotcha me, don’t even get me started on the immorality of the United States. I got opinions.) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/132 "2022-09-12T10:54:24Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > She could have burned it all down, threatening to dissolve the monarchy if the nation couldn’t live up to basic humanitarian ideals. She absolutely could not have done this. It’s a fun idea, but it just grossly overweights the actual amount of authority and influence she wielded at the time (or indeed, ever). The first assumption is that she knew about the concentration camps. The UK put an enormous amount of effort into keeping the reality of its violent repression hidden even from parts of its government that were not directly involved. The chances that the young Queen was sent a briefing that said, in effect, “We are rounding up people and torturing them with axes in your name, aren’t we clever boys” are nil. Something vague about “restoring order” would be as much as she got. But even if she had known, and had pushed back privately, been rebuffed and decided that only drastic public action of the sort you describe would work then a) most likely she would simply have been prevented from having the opportunity; b) had she done so she would have been forced to abdicate in favour of her infant son and c) the fact the monarch had caused yet another abdication crisis would be used as evidence of the extreme danger of these namby-pamby pinko liberal ideals, which is why they and by extension any anti-colonial movement of any stripe must be dealt with firmly, because it threatens all that Britain holds dear. ETA > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > A constitutional crisis in a violent empire is a good thing. Counterpoint - no it’s not, not if it leads to the fanatical hard-core taking over and entrenching themselves in power. Which is a much more likely outcome of your “Lilibet burns it all down” scenario than the emergence of a peaceful “decolonialisation and reparations” regime that we should have had. Britain’s Empire, even in its dying days in the 1950s, was a violently repressive regime that committed atrocities. These were done in the Queen’s name, and she was the figurehead and symbol for that Empire. It’s a huge moral stain. But the idea that she had the power to change this by making a public threat to the constitution isn’t an effective moral critique because it’s simply fantasy. The truth is, she didn’t have any effective way to push back against Britain’s violent imperialism, and that doesn’t get her off the hook for being its figurehead anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/133 "2022-09-12T10:59:05Z")
I’m British, and am rather surprised by the amount of coverage this has gotten amongst the foreign media - you should see France 24, of all places. They’ve been going nut nut. I really don’t expect Americans to have any reaction other than mild curiosity (or disgust) at the whole weirdness of having a royal family and all the pomp that goes with that. But as a Brit, I find it hard to describe the general feeling here. On the one hand, it felt like a huge shock when her death was announced, not because it’s a surprise to see a 96 year old die, but because it felt like a shift in the bedrock of the country. In a time of turmoil, with useless politicians, she stood for stability. I guess we’re surrounded by reminders of her position - her name appear on Police helmets and postboxes. Every government department is "Her Majesty’s…'. It’s a constant presence we don’t even really notice. Until it’s gone. The other thing that makes this whole episode feel really strange is that at the same time as we’re following her coffin through the streets of Edinburgh, we’re hailing a new King, with all the proclamations and literal fanfares that go with that. There’s a quiet sense of excitement. People are lining up outside Buckingham Palace in the hope of glimpsing the new King, who suddenly feels different to us. Not the Charles we thought we know I think it’s just very confusing for us. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/134 "2022-09-12T11:05:34Z")
I’m certainly not going to defend the abuses of the British Empire, any more than I imagine you would want to defend those of the American government over the years. The point, however, is that it was absolutely not within the constitutional prerogative of the Queen to publicly oppose the actions of a democratically elected government. It just absolutely was not. IOW, she could be the monarch, or she could publicly protest against the government, but she could not do both. She could, however, express her views privately to government officials, and for all we know, maybe she did. It’s easy to sit back in your armchair and opine that she made a choice between being a monarch and publicly opposing the government. It’s not that simple. As I pointed out, and as @RickJay pointed out, and as indeed anyone familiar with the principles of a constitutional monarchy would point out, the monarchy is a historic and intrinsic part of that system of government. Queen Elizabeth rightly considered her role to be a solemn duty, whether she enjoyed its privileges or, much more likely, dreaded its severe impact on her ability to live the kind of free and ordinary life to which we all consider ourselves entitled. Criticizing her for that seems spectacularly ill-considered. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/135 "2022-09-12T11:08:43Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > had she done so she would have been forced to abdicate in favour of her infant son How could they force her to abdicate? > [@Stanislaus](#): > > The first assumption is that she knew about the concentration camps. If she genuinely did not know, and lacked the resources to learn, about the concentration camps, that’s something I’ll accept as exculpatory for her failure to act. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/136 "2022-09-12T11:16:48Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > But as a Brit, I find it hard to describe the general feeling here. On the one hand, it felt like a huge shock when her death was announced, not because it’s a surprise to see a 96 year old die, but because it felt like a shift in the bedrock of the country. In a time of turmoil, with useless politicians, she stood for stability. I guess we’re surrounded by reminders of her position - her name appear on Police helmets and postboxes. Every government department is "Her Majesty’s…'. It’s a constant presence we don’t even really notice. Until it’s gone. What is clearly different about Elizabeth, of course, is that she reigned for SEVENTY YEARS. For most people in the UK or a Commonwealth country, the UK doesn’t have a “monarch,” it had Queen Elizabeth II. The concept of death and succession is something 90% of the people in those countries literally have no experience or memory of. My mother is old, 75, and was alive when Elizabeth ascended the throne, but can’t remember that event. Elizabeth’s four predecessors had reigns of 16 years, less than one year, 26 years, and nine years. Before that of course you get into Victoria’s long reign, but someone living between Victoria and Elizabeth would have remembered and experienced one or more passings of the torch. It was a process they were used to seeing; a king or queen dies, and you get another, so it goes. Today the idea of anyone other than Elizabeth II being monarch is just… really weird. She’s the most recognizable and famous woman who ever lived. She’s been on the money and stamps and stuff as long as I’ve been alive. I’ve never in my life seen someone coronated. I had no idea how long it would take them to start printing different money and making different coins. (I found out yesterday that no, they aren’t prepared for it with new dies and printing plates, they just keep rolling with Elizabeth stuff while they get those approved and made.) > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How could they force her to abdicate? Well, there is always the Charles I approach of involuntary abdication. Okay, it’s unlikely Elizabeth would have been relieved of her head. However, the British government can certainly make the sovereign’s experience unbelievably unpleasant, and her family would have had a part in it too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/137 "2022-09-12T11:19:48Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > However, the British government can certainly make the sovereign’s experience unbelievably unpleasant, and her family would have had a part in it too. Like, concentration-camp unpleasant? Like, beaten and tortured and starved unpleasant? Or like moved to an upper-middle-class mansion and having your serving staff reduced by 90% unpleasant? Because unless they were going to throw her in one of their concentration camps in Kenya, I’m not sympathetic to how unpleasant they might make her life if she spoke up about how unpleasant they were making the lives of millions of her subjects. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/138 "2022-09-12T11:21:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Okay, it’s unlikely Elizabeth would have been relieved of her head. However, the British government can certainly make the sovereign’s experience unbelievably unpleasant, and her family would have had a part in it too. And Parliament can absolutely force an abdication. Just ask James II ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/139 "2022-09-12T11:23:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How could they force her to abdicate? Same way they forced her uncle A mix of institutional, parliamentary and popular pressure. Ultimately it’s been well established that Parliament is sovereign. An Act of Parliament forcing her out is the ultimate sanction. If we’re talking Kenya specifically, we’re looking at Churchill or Eden as PM. Neither would relish taking down a reigning monarch, but if it were that or Empire… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2022, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275/140 "2022-09-12T11:26:16Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > If we’re talking Kenya specifically, we’re looking at Churchill or Eden as PM. Neither would relish taking down a reigning monarch, but if it were that or Empire… Nice excluded middle there. Options include: -Taking down a monarch who hasn’t fled to France. -Complete loss of the empire -Bowing to the public pressure the _queen herself_ could bring, and murdering a few less people in the colonies. “A mix of institutional, parliamentary and popular pressure” isn’t the same thing as “force.” I’ve no doubt that had she spoken up, the horrible folks in parliament would’ve pushed back; but the good folks in parliament might also have joined the push. As long as folks in Kenya were being murdered in her name, she’d have no space to complain about the “pressure” brought to bear against her. She needed to talk with spiderman about great power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-confused-by-the-emotion-over-queen-elizabeths-passing/971275.md?page=8)