# Anyone else fearing a red wave? (Or at most, a blue ripple?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 28, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633 "2018-10-28T14:54:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/121 "2018-10-29T21:59:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > “harms no one” is your opinion. And the opinion of the vast, vast majority of medical and psychological experts. > [@](#): > > You have strange qualifications for what constitutes “hate”. Not that strange, especially considering that your argument has been used to justify and rationalize atrocities and horrible crimes throughout human history. > [@](#): > > Can I make any moral claims that differ from yours without “spreading hate”? Depends on the moral claim. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/122 "2018-10-29T22:02:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No? When one city passed a local ordinance protecting some trans rights, why did Republicans feel it necessary to turn it into a national issue? When gay marriage was illegal in every state in the Union, why did Republicans push so hard for DOMA? When Democrats tried to make it possible for every American citizen to serve their country in the armed forces, why did Republicans fight so hard against it? > > This has been how Republicans have treated gay people literally my whole life. I was three when they pushed [the Briggs Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briggs_Initiative), which would have banned gay people from being teachers. What did gay people ever do to deserve this treatment from Republicans? Why is it a bad thing that the Democrats, finally, tried to do something to help us? Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I get where you’re coming from now. I’m not a Republican, so I can’t speak for them. > [@Miller](#): > > Yes, you did. I’m gay. You said homosexuality is a disorder. Therefore, I’m disordered. That’s a box you put me into. I want to know why you’d do that. I’ve never hurt you. I’ve never expressed hate towards you, but you’re willingly to blithely say enormously insulting things about me, and about the people I love. I’m wondering what I did to deserve that? And in light of your comments here, I’m wondering why the onus is on me to convince you not to insult me like that? Why do I have to do the work to show you love to get you to stop treating me like I’m diseased? Why is that _my_ responsibility, when all I want you to do is let me live my life in peace - which is exactly what I was letting you do, until you started slandering me in public? Why didn’t “treat other people the way I want to be treated,” fail, in your specific case? I apologize for the misunderstanding. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder. I believe that homosexual _acts_ are disordered. That’s the thousands year-old teaching of the Catholic Church that I submit to. I don’t believe that you are disordered. I believe that because you are a human being, you are created in God’s image, and are therefore good. I believe that all of us as human beings make choices that are either good or bad, rightly ordered or disordered, and it’s our duty to order our lives rightly. I absolutely believe that you should live your life in peace. I am very sorry that you took my statements as slander. That was not at all my intent. I believe that we as human beings have the rational capacity to make moral judgments, and to express those moral judgments to each other in the interest of greater understanding. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/123 "2018-10-29T22:03:12Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That is absurd. How can you equate a sex act with skin color? One is a human act, one is an immutable genetic characteristic. > > A human act can be rightly ordered or disordered. > > A genetic characteristic cannot be ordered at all. It simply is. Don’t you think that sexuality might just have a genetic component? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/124 "2018-10-29T22:04:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > …You are so much more than a sex act. You think that sums up homosexuality? A sex act? Weren’t you just talking about love a bit back in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/125 "2018-10-29T22:06:06Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I get where you’re coming from now. I’m not a Republican, so I can’t speak for them. > > I apologize for the misunderstanding. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder. I believe that homosexual _acts_ are disordered. That’s the thousands year-old teaching of the Catholic Church that I submit to. I don’t believe that you are disordered. I believe that because you are a human being, you are created in God’s image, and are therefore good. I believe that all of us as human beings make choices that are either good or bad, rightly ordered or disordered, and it’s our duty to order our lives rightly. I absolutely believe that you should live your life in peace. > > I am very sorry that you took my statements as slander. That was not at all my intent. I believe that we as human beings have the rational capacity to make moral judgments, and to express those moral judgments to each other in the interest of greater understanding. Outsourcing an opinion to a religious organization does not excuse spreading hate. Whatever the source, what you said was hateful. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/126 "2018-10-29T22:11:03Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I think identity politics is a loser’s game. It’s alienating. Both R’s and D’s play the game, but I think the Democratic establishment as a whole openly embraces identity politics much more so than the Republican party does (the GOP establishment if anything is repulsed by the hijacking of their party by right-wing identity warriors). > > The Dems need to stop putting people in boxes. They need to stop alienating people who don’t act or believe the way that identity politics says they are supposed to. People are not robots. We are individuals. > > The interesting thing is that at the same time as this has been going on, the Democratic Party has become just as much of a slave to corporations as the Republicans ever were. I don’t think it used to be that way, but I don’t know, maybe it was. But, the Democrats can’t call themselves the party of the regular Joe without being hypocrites. Those aren’t really persuasive arguments. The entire GOP is based on nothing but identity politics (and plutocracy) at this point. Its all about white resentment, male resentment, christian resentment, native born resentment, etc. People allied with the GOP may not see it, but their entire identity is just resentment by in-groups at the march of egalitarianism and multiculturalism. Also the idea that the democrats are more slaves to corporations than the GOP doesn’t make sense. The democrats are not the ones passing tax cuts on the rich or deregulating industries. The democrats aren’t perfect, but in the short period when they had control they raised taxes on the rich and passed new regulations on the banks. Granted, the democrats sadly care more about corporations than the average person (which is why health reform made sure all the bloated, cruel corporations that benefit from our health system didn’t face genuine competition). But the democrats are like field slaves while the GOP are house slaves to the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/127 "2018-10-29T22:18:03Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I apologize for the misunderstanding. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder. I believe that homosexual _acts_ are disordered. That’s the thousands year-old teaching of the Catholic Church that I submit to. I don’t believe that you are disordered. I believe that because you are a human being, you are created in God’s image, and are therefore good. I believe that all of us as human beings make choices that are either good or bad, rightly ordered or disordered, and it’s our duty to order our lives rightly. I absolutely believe that you should live your life in peace. The bible supposedly condemns eating shellfish more than it condemns homosexuality. Also in the same chapter of the bible where anti-homosexual statements are made, the bible also condemns wearing polyester. > **[11 Things The Bible Bans, But You Do Anyway - 11 Points](https://11points.com/11-things-bible-bans-anyway/)** > > The Bible bans things like round haircuts, football, divorce, wearing gold and tattoos. Yesterday, I found myself in a discussion about the anti-abortion people. The reason: It’s just incomprehensible to us that people get so zealous about that issue... Historically, catholics have been victims of persecution in the US. The KKK used to target catholics since protestants used to be the in-group. catholics have only become mainstream in the last few decades. For much of US history, catholics were considered disordered and immoral. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/128 "2018-10-29T22:36:53Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > “harms no one” is your opinion. If I take some guy to court because he picked my pocket or broke my leg, and he replies that he’s harmed no one, I won’t quip, “well, that’s your opinion”. I’ll make a case that harm has been done; it’ll be _itemized_. You want photographs and diagrams? I can do photographs and diagrams. And if I take some guy to court because he — has sex with a man as often as I have sex with a woman? He’s going to reply that he’s harmed no one; and then I’ll, what, furrow my brow and stammer, _“hang on, can you give me a minute?”_ ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/129 "2018-10-29T22:39:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Don’t you think that sexuality might just have a genetic component? It might. But human actions do not. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/130 "2018-10-29T22:40:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > That is absurd. How can you equate a sex act with skin color? One is a human act, one is an immutable genetic characteristic. “Homosexuality” is not a sex act. It’s an innate and largely immutable characteristic that determines your most intimate and significant emotional relationships. Are you married? Would you not be at all bothered by someone characterizing your relationship with your wife as a “disorder?” Would you not be worried if there were a credible political movement to invalidate your marriage? > [@](#): > > A human act can be rightly ordered or disordered. > > A genetic characteristic cannot be ordered at all. It simply is. “Genetic disorder” is literally an established medical term. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/131 "2018-10-29T22:40:49Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > You think that sums up homosexuality? A sex act? Weren’t you just talking about love a bit back in this thread? That’s the aspect of it that I’m dealing with here, the action. Inclinations and proclivities are a distinct issue. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/132 "2018-10-29T23:10:28Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > A “red wave” may be the best thing for the Democratic Party in the long run. > > It may force them to re-evaluate their priorities to become more relevant to the mainstream. People say this sort of thing but I don’t see it at all. Defeat these days radicalizes parties rather than moderating them. Republicans became more and more radical after losing to Obama in 2008 and 2012. Democrats have shifted strongly to the left after losing to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/133 "2018-10-29T23:21:47Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder. I believe that homosexual _acts_ are disordered. A distinction without a difference. > [@](#): > > I am very sorry that you took my statements as slander. “I’m sorry you got offended,” is not a real apology. Own your words. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/134 "2018-10-29T23:22:36Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > But why don’t the machines change Cruz votes on straight-ticket-Republican ballots to votes for Beto, hmmm? The Cruz campaign staff certainly seems concerned about that happening based on your cite. The company response mentions the allegations are old and their machines are used in multiple states not all of which are as red as Texas. Have a good cite for the notion that this error only happens one way? ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2018, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/135 "2018-10-29T23:52:57Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder…I believe that because you are a human being, you are created in God’s image, and are therefore good. Thus, you believe that a homosexual person is created that way by God, and that is good. I’m right with you on that. > [@](#): > > I believe that homosexual acts are disordered. Yet, when that person follows his/her natural tendencies, then the resulting actions are disordered? Your logic, or lack thereof, escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/136 "2018-10-30T00:08:44Z")
[RIGHT][/RIGHT] > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The bible supposedly condemns eating shellfish more than it condemns homosexuality. Also in the same chapter of the bible where anti-homosexual statements are made, the bible also condemns wearing polyester. > > [11 Things The Bible Bans, But You Do Anyway - 11 Points](http://11points.com/11-things-bible-bans-anyway/) > > Historically, catholics have been victims of persecution in the US. The KKK used to target catholics since protestants used to be the in-group. catholics have only become mainstream in the last few decades. > > For much of US history, catholics were considered disordered and immoral. Not sure what the Bible has to do with anything… I am familiar with the history. Judging by this thread (and my own experience), Catholic theology is far from mainstream, and is apparently “hateful”, even though their primary mission is to save souls from damnation, the very opposite of hate. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/137 "2018-10-30T00:13:35Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Yet, when that person follows his/her natural tendencies, then the resulting actions are disordered? > > Your logic, or lack thereof, escapes me. Our natural tendencies can absolutely be disordered, and in that case they should not be followed. That’s the concept of original sin. Perfection is lacking in us all. I have to reject natural tendencies all the time. It’s how we grow and mature as humans. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/138 "2018-10-30T00:17:17Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > The Cruz campaign staff certainly seems concerned about that happening based on your cite. The company response mentions the allegations are old and their machines are used in multiple states not all of which are as red as Texas. I seem to remember people complaining about votes being switched to Obama in the previous Presidential election, although it’s possible that I do not recall correctly or it did not involve this software. It’s possible that due to a bug in the software, votes can only be switched in one direction in any given election, the actual direction of which has not been publicly identified yet most likely due to a combination of incompetence and CYA on the part of the machine manufacturers. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/139 "2018-10-30T00:21:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A distinction without a difference. > > “I’m sorry you got offended,” is not a real apology. Own your words. What I have meant by “homosexuality” throughout this entire thread is to refer to a particular action, namely homosexual sex. I am not referring to an identity group, a lifestyle, or an inclination. Those are separate conversations. When I use the term “disordered”, I am specifically referring to the act of homosexual sex as being a disordered act. Am I clear? I did not slander you. You identified yourself as homosexual. I affirmed my opinion regarding the act of homosexual sex, which is the position of the Catholic Church. A position that is very clear and very public. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/140 "2018-10-30T00:30:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Homosexuality” is not a sex act. It’s an innate and largely immutable characteristic that determines your most intimate and significant emotional relationships… If that’s all it is, then there’s no problem. My understanding has always been that it involves sex, though. > [@Miller](#): > > Are you married? Would you not be at all bothered by someone characterizing your relationship with your wife as a “disorder?” Would you not be worried if there were a credible political movement to invalidate your marriage?. I am married. I like to think that I’m open to learning and being corrected if necessary, so I would ask them to show me how my marriage is a disorder. I would not be worried because marriage is not something that is at the mercy of society or the state. It is instituted by God and sanctified by the Church. > [@Miller](#): > > “Genetic disorder” is literally an established medical term. Well yes, but I thought we were speaking in terms of morality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=8)