# Anyone else fearing a red wave? (Or at most, a blue ripple?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 28, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633 "2018-10-28T14:54:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Gladys\_Overnow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Gladys\_Overnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gladys_Overnow)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/141 "2018-10-30T00:41:29Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I think identity politics is a loser’s game. It’s alienating. Both R’s and D’s play the game, but I think the Democratic establishment as a whole openly embraces identity politics much more so than the Republican party does (the GOP establishment if anything is repulsed by the hijacking of their party by right-wing identity warriors). > > The Dems need to stop putting people in boxes. They need to stop alienating people who don’t act or believe the way that identity politics says they are supposed to. People are not robots. We are individuals. > > The interesting thing is that at the same time as this has been going on, the Democratic Party has become just as much of a slave to corporations as the Republicans ever were. I don’t think it used to be that way, but I don’t know, maybe it was. But, the Democrats can’t call themselves the party of the regular Joe without being hypocrites. This so much. And now to be blaming Trump and republicans for the current animosity on both sides when Hilary literally lost the election by calling Americans ‘deplorables’ just shows that the Dems still dont get it. I dont think the Dems realize how far they’ve fallen. Giving their indignation at Trump’s win and Hillary’s loss has become their obsession - they who refuse to unite with those they disagree with and like Hilary, mock anyone doesn’t toe the party line. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/142 "2018-10-30T00:56:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > It is instituted by God and sanctified by the Church. …you might be distressed to find out that god doesn’t exist. God is fiction. Fantasy. Not real. The belief in god is a disorder. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/143 "2018-10-30T01:00:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > What I have meant by “homosexuality” throughout this entire thread is to refer to a particular action, namely homosexual sex. I am not referring to an identity group, a lifestyle, or an inclination. Those are separate conversations. When I use the term “disordered”, I am specifically referring to the act of homosexual sex as being a disordered act. Am I clear? Yes, you are clear. Let me be equally clear: your position on this subject is hateful and harmful. It remains so whether you’re talking about gay people as a class, homosexuality as an orientation, or whatever imagery passes through your head when you say “homosexual sex.” > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I am married. I like to think that I’m open to learning and being corrected if necessary, so I would ask them to show me how my marriage is a disorder. Okay. Show me how homosexual sex is disordered. And you’re going to have to do better than “God sez.” > [@](#): > > I would not be worried because marriage is not something that is at the mercy of society or the state. It is instituted by God and sanctified by the Church. Yeah, that’s real sweet. Let’s talk about what happens when the state doesn’t recognize your marriage. You can be denied the right to visit your spouse in the hospital. You will be unable to collect social security or survivor’s benefits if your spouse dies. You will lose custody of your house if it was in your spouses name and they didn’t leave will. If your partner’s family doesn’t like the fact that they were in a relationship with you, they can bar you from visiting your partners grave. Your fancy Jesus wedding is great, and all, but there are real-world benefits associated with marriage that actually matter to people, and your church has fought really hard to make sure people like me don’t get them. So don’t talk to me about how loving the Catholic Church is. I’ve seen how it actually treats people like me, and “love” has fuck-all to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/144 "2018-10-30T01:02:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > “Homosexuality” is not a sex act. It’s an innate and largely immutable characteristic that determines your most intimate and significant emotional relationships. … Probably a topic for a different thread, but at some point I’d be interested in you delving a little deeper on the idea of sexual orientation as a “largely immutable” characteristic. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/145 "2018-10-30T01:23:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The belief in god is a disorder. Interesting. I’m curious if **Miller** would consider this statement insulting or slander. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/146 "2018-10-30T01:25:36Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Interesting. I’m curious if **Miller** would consider this statement insulting or slander. If I were a theist, I expect I’d find that fairly insulting. How do you feel about it? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/147 "2018-10-30T01:35:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yes, you are clear. Let me be equally clear: your position on this subject is hateful and harmful. It remains so whether you’re talking about gay people as a class, homosexuality as an orientation, or whatever imagery passes through your head when you say “homosexual sex.”. I’m very sorry that you feel this way, and I certainly don’t want to be hateful or harm anyone, and I honestly don’t believe that I am. I genuinely believe that the moral teachings of the Church bring true and lasting happiness and fulfillment, even though many of them are very difficult. > [@Miller](#): > > Show me how homosexual sex is disordered. And you’re going to have to do better than “God sez.”. The primary purpose of sex is procreation. That’s written into nature as the proper order of things. Any sexual act that purposefully separates the procreative aspect is by nature disordered. The Church’s teachings on this are readily available online. > [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, that’s real sweet. Let’s talk about what happens when the state doesn’t recognize your marriage. You can be denied the right to visit your spouse in the hospital. You will be unable to collect social security or survivor’s benefits if your spouse dies. You will lose custody of your house if it was in your spouses name and they didn’t leave will. If your partner’s family doesn’t like the fact that they were in a relationship with you, they can bar you from visiting your partners grave. > > Your fancy Jesus wedding is great, and all, but there are real-world benefits associated with marriage that actually matter to people, and your church has fought really hard to make sure people like me don’t get them… I would argue that this is a problem of state interference into something it has no business regulating. The state is the problem here. I’m libertarian on this issue. You should be able to get all of those benefits without state hindrance. > [@Miller](#): > > So don’t talk to me about how loving the Catholic Church is. I’ve seen how it actually treats people like me, and “love” has fuck-all to do with it. I’m sincerely sorry that this has been your experience. I’ve always done my best to treat everyone with dignity and respect. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/148 "2018-10-30T01:42:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If I were a theist, I expect I’d find that fairly insulting. How do you feel about it? I think he’s wrong, and if he were willing I’d discuss the issue further; but I learned a long time ago that you can’t take it personally when someone disagrees with you. How could we have any meaningful discussion if we can’t disagree and share those disagreements civilly? Look at Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro. Rubin is an atheist and in a homosexual marriage, while Shapiro is a devout theist who doesn’t believe in gay marriage, but they have very cordial and fruitful discussions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/149 "2018-10-30T01:48:46Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I think he’s wrong …what is it, exactly, do you think I am wrong about? Where is god? Prove he exists. Explain how god instituted marriage. Show me how she did it. Prove that a belief in god isn’t disordered. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/150 "2018-10-30T01:49:09Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m very sorry that you feel this way, and I certainly don’t want to be hateful or harm anyone, and I honestly don’t believe that I am. Many people believe things about themselves that turn out not to be true. > [@](#): > > The primary purpose of sex is procreation. That’s written into nature as the proper order of things. Any sexual act that purposefully separates the procreative aspect is by nature disordered. The Church’s teachings on this are readily available online. There’s a lot of assertions here to unpack. Just to start, you say procreation is the “primary” purpose of sex. So, what’s the secondary purpose? You say that sex-for-procreation is written into nature as the proper order of things. What does this mean? Many animals practice non-procreative sex. Are they also disordered? I understand the whole “animals don’t sin” concept in Christianity, but when you say it’s “written in nature,” you seem to be making a non-theological claim, that this is how nature functions even absent a belief in a deity. More to the point, _why_ is non-procreative sex disordered? Why is it a bad thing? Why does God care if we have sex for pleasure? For that matter, if sex is only allowable for the purposes of procreation, given the existence of things like in-vitro fertilization, shouldn’t the position of the Church be that all sex is unacceptable, given that it’s currently possible to procreate without sex at all? > [@](#): > > I would argue that this is a problem of state interference into something it has no business regulating. The state is the problem here. I’m libertarian on this issue. You should be able to get all of those benefits without state hindrance. I’m not clear what you’re trying to say here. You say that the state has no business regulating marriage, then say I should be able to get those benefits without hindrance. How do I get state benefits out of an institution in which the state has no business interfering? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/151 "2018-10-30T01:59:07Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > The primary purpose of sex is procreation. That’s written into nature as the proper order of things. Any sexual act that purposefully separates the procreative aspect is by nature disordered. Help me out here. What’s the primary purpose of fingers, as written into nature? Is it to mash buttons imprinted with letters, buttons made from highly refined rotten paleolithic plants, in order to shoot electricity through melted-and-cooled ore? Is that the proper order of things? What’s the primary purpose of electricity? What about the primary purpose of petroleum, buried by God thousands of feet beyond human reach? What about the primary purpose of sand–is it to be melted and flattened and adulterated with rare earths to make a screen on which you can make an argument? What’s the primary purpose of the naturalistic fallacy? It’s a bit . . . odd . . . for you to use the insanely refined and twisted and reshaped ten-steps-removed-from-nature technology of the Internet to lecture people about something as natural as two dudes fucking. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/152 "2018-10-30T02:00:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The belief in god is a disorder. I can understand why you feel that way, given a whole bunch of the people who claim to speak on God’s behalf (including certain people present in this thread). But it’s still painting with quite the broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/153 "2018-10-30T02:03:19Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I’m sincerely sorry that this has been your experience. I’ve always done my best to treat everyone with dignity and respect. Except, you know, this entire thread. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/154 "2018-10-30T02:03:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Help me out here. What’s the primary purpose of fingers, as written into nature? Is it to mash buttons imprinted with letters, buttons made from highly refined rotten paleolithic plants, in order to shoot electricity through melted-and-cooled ore? Is that the proper order of things? > > What’s the primary purpose of electricity? What about the primary purpose of petroleum, buried by God thousands of feet beyond human reach? What about the primary purpose of sand–is it to be melted and flattened and adulterated with rare earths to make a screen on which you can make an argument? > > What’s the primary purpose of the naturalistic fallacy? > > It’s a bit . . . odd . . . for you to use the insanely refined and twisted and reshaped ten-steps-removed-from-nature technology of the Internet to lecture people about something as natural as two dudes fucking. **LHoD** , that was one _righteous_ rant. +some very large number ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/155 "2018-10-30T02:06:35Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > But it’s still painting with quite the broad brush. …EscAlaMike believes [“A human act can be rightly ordered or disordered.”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21293113&postcount=115). When presented with a binary choice I really have no option except to paint with a broad brush. If you have a problem with that, can I suggest you take it up with EscAlaMike? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/156 "2018-10-30T02:49:15Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > [RIGHT][/RIGHT] > > Not sure what the Bible has to do with anything… You said this earlier about your religion and homosexuality. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I apologize for the misunderstanding. I don’t believe that homosexuality is a disorder. I believe that homosexual _acts_ are disordered. That’s the thousands year-old teaching of the Catholic Church that I submit to. Anyway, on to the rest of your post. > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I am familiar with the history. Judging by this thread (and my own experience), Catholic theology is far from mainstream, and is apparently “hateful”, even though their primary mission is to save souls from damnation, the very opposite of hate. A lot of protestants feel that Catholicism is disordered. A lot of muslims find christianity to be disordered. Do you support the right of protestants and muslims to mistreat catholics or take away their civil rights due to religious beliefs? If a Muslim found catholilcs to be disordered, dysfunctional and deranged, and tried to restrict their civil rights but said ‘I’m just practicing my religion’ how would you respond? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/157 "2018-10-30T13:33:43Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just to start, you say procreation is the “primary” purpose of sex. So, what’s the secondary purpose? Sex has the dual purpose of being procreative and unitive. > [@Miller](#): > > You say that sex-for-procreation is written into nature as the proper order of things. What does this mean? Many animals practice non-procreative sex. Are they also disordered? I understand the whole “animals don’t sin” concept in Christianity, but when you say it’s “written in nature,” you seem to be making a non-theological claim, that this is how nature functions even absent a belief in a deity. It’s important here to emphasize that human nature is unique from animal nature. Animals kill and cannibalize each other too, but we are trying to be more human, not more animal-like. Humans should transcend our more base animal-like instincts to become more fully human. Therefore, animals engaging in non-procreative sex is irrelevant to the issue. > [@Miller](#): > > ore to the point, _why_ is non-procreative sex disordered? Why is it a bad thing? Why does God care if we have sex for pleasure? For that matter, if sex is only allowable for the purposes of procreation, given the existence of things like in-vitro fertilization, shouldn’t the position of the Church be that all sex is unacceptable, given that it’s currently possible to procreate without sex at all? It’s disordered because it’s written into the laws of nature that procreation happens through the act of sex between male and female. That’s basic biology. God cares what we do with our bodies because he gave us our bodies as a gift, and he became a man and took on a human body. Sex is not allowable _only_ for the purpose of procreation, or else sex during pregnancy or after menopause or between infertile couples would be banned. Sex must be both unitive and open to the creative act of procreation. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m not clear what you’re trying to say here. You say that the state has no business regulating marriage, then say I should be able to get those benefits without hindrance. How do I get state benefits out of an institution in which the state has no business interfering? Okay, let’s take your examples one by one: Hospital visitation: Hospital visitation policy should be between the patient and the hospital. The state should not dictate who a hospital may or may not allow in to visit a patient. Social Security spouse benefits: I don’t believe SS to be a just program, tweak the policy for survivor benefits to allow any beneficiary, or eliminate the program. House: If your partner didn’t leave a will, then that’s hardly the fault of anti-gay marriage activists Graveside visitation: Again, this is between the partner’s family and you. As for filing taxes (which you curiously didn’t mention, that’s usually the biggest issue), the income tax is unjust in principle. Eliminate it, and problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/158 "2018-10-30T13:37:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Help me out here. What’s the primary purpose of fingers, as written into nature? Is it to mash buttons imprinted with letters, buttons made from highly refined rotten paleolithic plants, in order to shoot electricity through melted-and-cooled ore? Is that the proper order of things? > > What’s the primary purpose of electricity? What about the primary purpose of petroleum, buried by God thousands of feet beyond human reach? What about the primary purpose of sand–is it to be melted and flattened and adulterated with rare earths to make a screen on which you can make an argument? > > What’s the primary purpose of the naturalistic fallacy? > > It’s a bit . . . odd . . . for you to use the insanely refined and twisted and reshaped ten-steps-removed-from-nature technology of the Internet to lecture people about something as natural as two dudes fucking. We are talking about morality. None of those things you mentioned have any moral aspect to them. Sex does have a moral aspect to it. I’m not lecturing anyone. We are having a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/159 "2018-10-30T13:39:20Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …EscAlaMike believes [“A human act can be rightly ordered or disordered.”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21293113&postcount=115). You disagree? Please explain. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/160 "2018-10-30T13:41:02Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > You disagree? Please explain. …I’m clearly agreeing. Belief in god is disordered. God doesn’t exist. God is a fiction. What is it that is confusing you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=9)