# Anyone else fearing a red wave? (Or at most, a blue ripple?) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 28, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633 "2018-10-28T14:54:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/161 "2018-10-30T13:41:29Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Do you support the right of protestants and muslims to mistreat catholics or take away their civil rights due to religious beliefs? If a Muslim found catholilcs to be disordered, dysfunctional and deranged, and tried to restrict their civil rights but said ‘I’m just practicing my religion’ how would you respond? I believe in individual human rights. I don’t believe that practicing religion can or should infringe on anyone’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/162 "2018-10-30T13:43:44Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m clearly agreeing. Belief in god is disordered. God doesn’t exist. God is a fiction. > > What is it that is confusing you? Gotcha. You believe that the non-existence of God is so obvious, that to believe otherwise is disordered. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/163 "2018-10-30T13:45:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sex has the dual purpose of being procreative and unitive. > > It’s important here to emphasize that human nature is unique from animal nature. Animals kill and cannibalize each other too, but we are trying to be more human, not more animal-like. Humans should transcend our more base animal-like instincts to become more fully human. Therefore, animals engaging in non-procreative sex is irrelevant to the issue. Cite? > [@](#): > > It’s disordered because it’s written into the laws of nature that procreation happens through the act of sex between male and female. That’s basic biology. This is not basic biology. This isn’t a scientific statement at all. Organisms that procreate through sex have evolved behaviors (such as a sex drive) that increase the chances of this procreation occurring. Those behaviors often serve other purposes, like bonding. There is nothing about same-sex pairing that restricts or prevents procreation. > [@](#): > > God cares what we do with our bodies because he gave us our bodies as a gift, and he became a man and took on a human body. > > Sex is not allowable _only_ for the purpose of procreation, or else sex during pregnancy or after menopause or between infertile couples would be banned. Sex must be both unitive and open to the creative act of procreation. Don’t care that you or anyone believes this, but why should public policy reflect in any way this kind of religious belief? You’re free to practice whatever sexual behavior you prefer. Why should others be restricted by your beliefs? > [@](#): > > Okay, let’s take your examples one by one: > > Hospital visitation: Hospital visitation policy should be between the patient and the hospital. The state should not dictate who a hospital may or may not allow in to visit a patient. Sometimes patients are unconscious or otherwise unable to make such decisions. In such cases, the law determines who the hospital must contact for serious life-and-death decisions. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/164 "2018-10-30T13:47:25Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I believe in individual human rights. I don’t believe that practicing religion can or should infringe on anyone’s rights. Then how to you justify advocating for restricting the rights of many gay people (i.e. they currently have the right to be the primary contact for hospitals if their partner is hospitalized and unable to make such decisions, and they currently have the right to adopt children)? Advocating taking away such rights is hateful and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/165 "2018-10-30T13:47:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Help me out here. What’s the primary purpose of fingers, as written into nature? Is it to mash buttons imprinted with letters, buttons made from highly refined rotten paleolithic plants, in order to shoot electricity through melted-and-cooled ore? Is that the proper order of things? > > What’s the primary purpose of electricity? What about the primary purpose of petroleum, buried by God thousands of feet beyond human reach? What about the primary purpose of sand–is it to be melted and flattened and adulterated with rare earths to make a screen on which you can make an argument? > > What’s the primary purpose of the naturalistic fallacy? > > It’s a bit . . . odd . . . for you to use the insanely refined and twisted and reshaped ten-steps-removed-from-nature technology of the Internet to lecture people about something as natural as two dudes fucking. Post of the year. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/166 "2018-10-30T13:51:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite? Which part? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not basic biology. This isn’t a scientific statement at all. Organisms that procreate through sex have evolved behaviors (such as a sex drive) that increase the chances of this procreation occurring. Those behaviors often serve other purposes, like bonding. There is nothing about same-sex pairing that restricts or prevents procreation. You have just agreed with me completely, i.e: 1. procreative, 2. unitive. “There is nothing about same-sex pairing that restricts or prevents procreation.” HUH? Except the fact that either sperm or egg is missing from one of the partners… > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t care that you or anyone believes this, but why should public policy reflect in any way this kind of religious belief? You’re free to practice whatever sexual behavior you prefer. Why should others be restricted by your beliefs? Who made that argument? Not me. I haven’t said anything about public policy. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sometimes patients are unconscious or otherwise unable to make such decisions. In such cases, the law determines who the hospital must contact for serious life-and-death decisions. That’s a problem with the law, then. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/167 "2018-10-30T13:52:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then how to you justify advocating for restricting the rights of many gay people (i.e. they currently have the right to be the primary contact for hospitals if their partner is hospitalized and unable to make such decisions, and they currently have the right to adopt children)? Advocating taking away such rights is hateful and wrong. I haven’t advocated for anything. I’m just defending the Catholic moral teaching regarding homosexual acts. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/168 "2018-10-30T13:57:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …EscAlaMike believes [“A human act can be rightly ordered or disordered.”](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21293113&postcount=115). When presented with a binary choice I really have no option except to paint with a broad brush. If you have a problem with that, can I suggest you take it up with EscAlaMike? You’re locked in to his dichotomy? Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/169 "2018-10-30T13:58:52Z")
Jesus Christ, what the Hell does any of the latest tangent in this thread have to do with whether or not this will be a wave election and for which side? **EscAlaMike** , just a suggestion, why not start a new thread via which you can spout your tiresome judgmentalism to you heart’s content, and anyone who’s interested can partake there, instead of continuing to hijack this thread? I apologize to everyone in advance if I am out of line here. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/170 "2018-10-30T13:59:39Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Which part? Any and all of it (though if you’re just talking theology, then forget it). > [@](#): > > You have just agreed with me completely, i.e: 1. procreative, 2. unitive. Not exactly. There’s some subtlety there that you’re missing. But if you’re just talking theology, then I’m not interested. > [@](#): > > “There is nothing about same-sex pairing that restricts or prevents procreation.” HUH? Except the fact that either sperm or egg is missing from one of the partners… How does it prevent anything? By that argument, walking down the street “restricts or prevents procreation” because there’s no joining of sperm and egg. That’s nuts. Same-sex pairing between consenting adults harms no one and does nothing to restrict or prevent procreation. If some organization is telling you that this is “disordered” behavior, then that organization is spreading hate, and you should resist that hate. > [@](#): > > Who made that argument? Not me. I haven’t said anything about public policy. > > That’s a problem with the law, then. Then it sounds like you agree that same-sex marriage, along with all the rights that come with it (hospital visitation, adoption, etc.) should remain legal. Good for you, and hopefully you’ll spread this inclusive and loving message with everyone you know. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/171 "2018-10-30T14:20:20Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Sex is not allowable _only_ for the purpose of procreation, or else sex during pregnancy or after menopause or between infertile couples would be banned. Sex must be both unitive and open to the creative act of procreation. I’m having a little bit of trouble trying to parse this, the examples in your first sentence appear to be directly in conflict with your second sentence. Can you clarify? Or “by open to the creative act”, do you mean that two infertile 80 year olds must necessarily hope for a magic miracle that a pregnancy occurs prior to engaging in sex? But not _too much_ of a miracle, right, because one party needs to have boy-parts and one party needs to have girl-parts for said miracle to occur? Am I grasping the leaps of logic correctly here? What are the rules for when a spouse no longer has the right parts, due to injury or medical amputation? What are the rules following a hysterectomy? ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/172 "2018-10-30T14:28:42Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Jesus Christ, what the Hell does any of the latest tangent in this thread have to do with whether or not this will be a wave election and for which side? > > **EscAlaMike** , just a suggestion, why not start a new thread via which you can spout your tiresome judgmentalism to you heart’s content, and anyone who’s interested can partake there, instead of continuing to hijack this thread? > > I apologize to everyone in advance if I am out of line here. This started with [Post #111](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21293075&postcount=111) in which I was accused of slander. I defended myself against the accusation, and the thread has since been completely hijacked. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/173 "2018-10-30T14:30:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How does it prevent anything? By that argument, walking down the street “restricts or prevents procreation” because there’s no joining of sperm and egg. That’s nuts. Same-sex pairing between consenting adults harms no one and does nothing to restrict or prevent procreation. Are we talking about friendship or are we talking about sex? Because I thought we were talking about sex. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If some organization is telling you that this is “disordered” behavior, then that organization is spreading hate, and you should resist that hate. Again, I thought we were talking about sex… ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/174 "2018-10-30T14:34:39Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Can you clarify? Or “by open to the creative act”, do you mean that two infertile 80 year olds must necessarily hope for a magic miracle that a pregnancy occurs prior to engaging in sex? But not _too much_ of a miracle, right, because one party needs to have boy-parts and one party needs to have girl-parts for said miracle to occur? Am I grasping the leaps of logic correctly here? What are the rules for when a spouse no longer has the right parts, due to injury or medical amputation? What are the rules following a hysterectomy? It has nothing to do with “miracles”. I just mean not doing anything to purposefully inhibit procreation (i.e. condom, BC pill, pulling out, oral or anal, etc). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/175 "2018-10-30T14:44:14Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Are we talking about friendship or are we talking about sex? Because I thought we were talking about sex. > > Again, I thought we were talking about sex… Yes… and? If you believe same-sex sexual activity inhibits/restricts/prevents procreation, then literally every single activity that doesn’t result in joining sperm and egg inhibits/restricts/prevents procreation. Which is nuts. I’m sitting here typing. That’s not inhibiting procreation. Neither is having a burger. Neither is same-sex consensual adult activity. ---
**Author:** ![EscAlaMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/escalamike/32/4177_2.png) [@EscAlaMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EscAlaMike)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/176 "2018-10-30T14:55:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes… and? If you believe same-sex sexual activity inhibits/restricts/prevents procreation, then literally every single activity that doesn’t result in joining sperm and egg inhibits/restricts/prevents procreation. Which is nuts. I’m sitting here typing. That’s not inhibiting procreation. Neither is having a burger. Neither is same-sex consensual adult activity. If you think that having sex is no more meaningful an act than eating a burger, then I don’t see how we can have any fruitful discussion. I happen to believe that having sex is a significant and unique act that has a moral component. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/177 "2018-10-30T14:56:00Z")
**Moderators,** can we please move this D.B. Cooper of a thread hijack off to GD and continue with the discussion of the upcoming midterms? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/178 "2018-10-30T15:08:28Z")
Sorry. I’ll stop. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/179 "2018-10-30T15:12:18Z")
Yes, everyone will. You know where the other threads can be made. Let’s keep this one on track. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633/180 "2018-10-30T15:17:37Z")
> [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I believe in individual human rights. I don’t believe that practicing religion can or should infringe on anyone’s rights. Well, this thread is so off the rails, what the heck… So, your religious viewpoint is to spread love and acceptance. Even to Nazis - > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > Every single one of those problems are specifically problems of not loving your neighbor. Love the fascist, love the neo-Nazi, love the white supremacist, love the foreigner, love the immigrant, and on and on. > > Why do you think those people became that way? They live in a hateful world. Show them love. Right. Love thy Nazi. But gay folks not so much. You may want to consider just WHO is making it a hateful world. It seems that being gay is OK with you, after Miller admonished you. Just not the act of sex between two consenting adults of the same sex. Your interpretation of your religion is telling you to accept Nazis before you would accept homosexuality? Is this correct? eta - > [@EscAlaMike](#): > > I, however, have never met a neo-Nazi, so I find all of the hopeless quivering a bit ridiculous. You may want to visit the historical documents and consider the difference between Nazis and Homosexuals as it relates to the spread of hate. eta2 - Sorry Johnathan, was writing and did not see your note. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-fearing-a-red-wave-or-at-most-a-blue-ripple/823633.md?page=10)