flyboy88, please note that I also am not trying to offend you. I’m a nice guy, really I am. You deserve plenty of gratitude for being willing to defend the country.
But this war is folly. It is not about defending our country. I hate what it is you are charged with doing and I can’t get behind it.
Jpeg, I understand where you’re coming from. Why should I support the people who are carrying out orders that I either don’t agree with or find illegal.
However, remember that every soldier has a family, and I can guarantee that you personally know several members of the Armed Forces. Would you tell, say, your brother, that you don’t give a rat’s ass if he dies because you doesn’t agree with what he’s doing? Of course not.
We have a very delicate balance we have to strike in the military. One the one hand, due to Lt. Calley and My Lai, we are answerable to everything we do, so “just following orders” is not an affirmative defense any longer. Yet, should we completely disagree with what’s going on and desert, we may end up like Pvt. Eddie Slovik. The UCMJ has no forgiveness.
So what do we do? We fight. It is our obligation and our duty to “obey the officers appointed over us, so help us God”. It doesn’t mean we have to like it, but who really likes to fight? None of us are pathological. We’re normal people in a job that puts us at grave risk.
Some people chose to do it for their future. Some, like me, love what they do. Others do it just to get away from something and get out as soon as possible. But we all volunteered, and we all assumed the same risk.
In addition, Basic has an interesting effect on most people. It gives you perspective on why fights start and for what causes they should start. Most of us agree with this war, not because we’re normally belligerent, but because we have a better understanding of what it is and what it is for.
Some people will disagree with me, I’m sure, but that’s how I see things. I don’t begrudge you your opinions on the war, but I would just ask you to support the people who are over there, not for what they’re doing but because for who they are: just Americans, doing their duty.
I hope I helped.
Jpeg, there are clear extremes. If someone over me orders me to shoot an unarmed soldier who has clearly given himself up, should I consider that a lawful order? No. Let’s take the EP-3 incident in China. Say the circumstances were a little different, and there were open hostilities between China and the U.S. The The pilot has time to radio back to base for guidance and receives “Do not land in hostile territory. Ditch the aircraft.” Ditching will cause some crewmember deaths; landing in China won’t. Does he follow the order? Yes.
If you can explain to me how, as a military officer, I am supposed to in any way perceive Bush’s order to attack Iraq as unlawful (and I’m not talking in a political way… see the above example), please enlighten me and, while you’re at it, the other 200+ thousand troops in the Gulf. You thinking that it’s wrong does not make it unlawful or immoral in a military sense. If it’s something you can argue, it really shouldn’t be up for discussion for someone like me. I mean, the situation needs to be very clear. I couldn’t even attempt to argue how shooting an unarmed enemy soldier who has surrendered is the right thing to do, or how disobeying such an order isn’t the right thing to do.
Please bear in mind this is coming from someone who has never been threatened by Iraqi AAA or SAM batteries while enforcing a NFZ. (I personally haven’t, but have been in the air providing Indications and Warning to those who have).
I think you’d re-think that attitude if the U.S. was invaded by a hostile force. Would you prefer us to have the freedom of choice to suddenly become conscientious objectors when ordered to intercept the enemy?
As for your last post, thanks for that. I understand if you can’t get behind it. But nevertheless supporting the troops who are required to carry it out is the right thing to do. I’m sorry if you can’t see this.
jacksen9, you haven’t even come close to offending me. Heck, your posts have been very supportive. As for your question, hopefully I’ve already answered it. Anytime I’m speaking on the record or in public, I will support my CinC whether I’m personally conflicted or not. If I am conflicted, then unless the situation is very clearly unlawful, I am required to put aside my feelings and carry on.
Well said, sir. You put it in far better words than I did. 
Lord, its the same crapola they tried to feed us thirty five years ago! “America - Love It or Leave It!” “Why don’t you go back to Russia, if you hate America so much!” I dreamed that I had heard the last of this shit, but its not to be. I expect to hear stories about hairy peaceniks spitting on returning troops any day now.
It’s a lie.
Don’t you notice how deftly they have changed the debate? How people who oppose the Administrations postion are forced to declare thier “support” as if it was a given that to oppose Bush was unpatriotic. Since when does this smirking, overprivileged frat-boy get to decide what’s patriotic!!?
Maybe next time he dons his oh-so-manly-macho bombardier jacket, maybe he’ll explain to us what happened to his missing year of Air National Guard service? Did he get bored defending the skies over Amarillo from Viet Cong aircraft, wander off for a beer and forget to come back?
Sure, Al Gore was a rear echelon motherfucker, writing press releases in Saigon, but he was ten thousand miles closer to the shit than GeeDubya ever got! So if you want to be impressed with the snappy way he salutes the Marine when he gets off the helicopter, be my guest.
But I say its spinach, and I say to hell with it!
Its a two way street. By taking his oath, a soldier has surrendered freedom of choice: he must obey. Someone takes an oath to protect me and mine, there is no question about honoring that choice. But my side of the bargain is that I will not ask him…no, I will not tolerate that he should be sent to kill for any cause that I do not wholly believe is honorable.
Perhaps this is a hijack, but I don’t consider it so becasue it directly pertains to the subject in the OP.
It’s a story (which I so often tell).
In 1970, our nation was in the midst of the Vietnam War. There was also a farmer boy from the middle of nowhere who had aspirations to be a successful businessman who was about to finally enter his first hard earned year of college. Unfortunately, his draft card had other plans for him. Of his graduating class in 1964, there were 34 male students. Of those 34 male students, 30 of them were drafted for Vietnam. About two thirds actually served. The draft was not fair…poor farmer boys were simply considered better fighters…and more willing to obey authority.
This young man wanted nothing to do with a war. He was not in favor of wars where his country had no real interest. He had no desire to move from the freezing tundra to the jungle. He had never even fired a firearm…he had no desire to be fired upon. A pacifist in all avenues, he also felt that he had to pay his duty. So he served his term. He was lucky. He spent six months in Australia, four months in Saigon, and only two months in the jungle.
But the fact is…he was fired upon. He watched people die. He actually lost a friend from his high school with whom he had forged an enormous friendship in Vietnam because of their similar political views. He came back to America a changed man.
In 1971, he arrived back in the States. Three days later, there was a ceremony to be held in the state capital to honor the large amount of troops our state provided to the cause oversees. There were 240 of them arriving back home that day…out of 350 that had left the same day. This man stood tall as he entered the state capital grounds. He had made it home physically healthy, yet emotionally scarred for life. He was proud of the duty he served, even if he was not proud of the motivation for needing that duty.
His immense sense of pride, however, was rudely interrupted. As the beginning of the procession stepped foot on the capital property, a group of about 100 protesters burst into the parking lot with a burning American flag.
I do not know any more of the story. Most of this I had to gleen from other sources as the person mentioned in the story will not speak of it.
If you haven’t guessed yet…the person I am talking about is my father.
Yes, I am against the war. No, I will not talk about moral implications while the war is being faught.
We can wage our political debates endlessly once the situation has settled a bit. I do not hope to quell the quarrels, only to try to make a point. The negative consequences of a divided nation right now are far too severe for me to even contemplate.
We may, right now, be in the most important phase in the course of our history. We will get a chance in another year and a half to voice our dissent on the administration. If the war lasts that long, Bush will not get re-elected.
I have a feeling that the war on Iraq will end a lot sooner than that.
However, the “War on Terrorism” will not.
My husband, tried to join the Air Force when he was 17, they wouldn’t take him due to his age, so he tried the Army, no dice. So he entered the Marine Corps. He’s now a Gunnery Sgt. in the Reserves. He was called up six weeks ago, and left three days later. He thinks this war is asinine.
He has served proudly for 17 years now. He served in the first Gulf war, and he will serve in this one, despite his political leanings. Most of his troops are 19 and 20 year old guys. Many of them have kids of their own, and many of them have had to leave college to go. He will keep their moral high, and keep them safe. His job is to get those Marines home to their families in one piece.
Some of the Marines agree with this war, some of them don’t, but to a person, they want to come home as soon as possible. So if the guy in the White House, says the road home is through Baghdad, that’s where they’ll be going.
However remember that 48% of the US armed forces are Reservists, and they are giving up a lot for this administration. Fortunately my husband works for a company that makes up the difference between his pay, and the piddiling amount that the military pays a E-6. Most companies don’t do this. Many reservists are losing a lot because they are serving active duty. This includes reserves serving both domestically and abroad. These are not trivial sacrifices. This is not to take anything away from the active duty soldiers who get screwed at every turn.
You have no idea what it is like to be glued to the TV despite the fact that all you want to do is turn away. To hear that a Marine is killed and be actually happy when you find out that he wasn’t in a unit you are familiar with. You can only imagine the guilt involved. It’s torture on a level that most people simply can not understand.
I don’t really care if you support the the troops. I support mine. Despite my fervent belief that this war is not the right thing to do.
I have now been educated on that point. Thank you.
These stories of soldiers who disagree with the war have planted a seed of sympathy in me.
I should have made myself clearer. That’s not the point I think is speculative. I won’t be surprised at all if we find WMDs in Iraq. What I think is speculation is the whole idea of Iraq being a threat to us in the first place. Why disarm Saddam Hussein? Why not North Korea or Pakistan or Russia, who actually have nuclear bombs? We live in a world full of threats. What’s so special about this one that it deserves military action?
If we had, for example, so spectacularly struck Afghanistan and the Taliban before September 11, the world would have thought we were nuts, as they do today in response to this war. My philosophy of life prevents me from agreeing with preemptive strikes.
But now I’m opening a whole new debate I didn’t really intend to. Moving on…
What I haven’t said until now is that I do think our military strategy should be defensive. Of course I don’t think we should sit idly by and be invaded by a hostile force. In fact, I think direct retaliation to attacks made on us is appropriate if carefully considered. Our response to al Qaeda and the Taliban which sponsored them was appropriate. And we should continue to rid the world of al Qaeda.
Again, I don’t want to go into a whole new debate, but I don’t see this war as being anywhere along the road to preventing terrorism. It’s a diversion at best and a travesty of Bush’s imperialist attitude at worst.