# Anyone else notice the arrogance among engineers

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980>\
**Category:** The BBQ Pit\
**Created:** [February 17, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980 "2006-02-17T18:51:09Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 8

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**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/141 "2006-02-18T17:42:47Z")

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> [@pizzabrat](#):
>
> The engineer title is supposed to explain their apparent genius and logic; of course it only explains the ego.

Right. Because the PE Exam is 10% genius, 10% logic, and 90% ego.\*

I see two reasons for the OP: Either pizzabrat is seeing the studious people he used to push around suddenly getting more money and respect than he does. Or he has the worst case of pocket protector envy that I have ever witnessed.

- 😃

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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/142 "2006-02-18T19:09:12Z")

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> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> I should clarify this last point. By implying that engineers have narrow backgrounds, I’m referring to the fact that they all go through more or less similar training, which engenders esprit de corps, and that can lead to a great deal of pride in what and who they are. In most people, I think this is a good thing, but there are always some bad apples.
> 
> With IT people it’s different, we come from a variety of academic backgrounds so we don’t have that. I’ve worked with extremely competent people who were business, history, and liberal arts majors, as well as CS majors. In short, we have so many different kinds of people in the field, academically speaking, that we don’t have the same kind of feeling about ourselves and our field.

Which is why managing IT people is like herding cats. I prefer to be one of the cats than the manager. It can be a lot of grief.

Jim

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**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/143 "2006-02-18T19:47:58Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **Una Persson** said:  
> I put it in quotes for emphasis as the “subject at hand” or under discussion, to call attention to it. I do in fact consider it a “real” engineering degree, even though I note there is a difference between it and many other engineering degrees, because there is not yet a PE license in any State that I know for Computer Engineering (which actually makes a significant difference to me, in that I can only hire people whose degree allows them to sit for the PE; thus all my engineering programmers are EE’s, ME’s, CE’s, etc.) .

Considering what CoE’s design, there’s relatively little need for us to have a licensed person sign off on a design. A bad processor design isn’t going to collapse in the middle of a hotel one day after years of function and kill a hundred people. Even if there was a PE exam for CoE, I probably wouldn’t take it since there’s no problem getting a job in my field without it.

I don’t find that there’s anything wrong with that, nor would I be disappointed if there never was a PE exam for CoEs.

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**Author:** ![Jeeves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@Jeeves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeeves)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/144 "2006-02-18T20:08:54Z")

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> [@rayh](#):
>
> Fuck you.
> 
> rayh BSc (maths)

I would like to apologize if that is a serious Fuck you. I was just playing along in the spirit of the thread. I am impressed by mathmeticians, most of them get math in a way I never will, but that is why they are mathmeticians and I am an (aspiring) engineer.

Of course, on our campus one of the games we play is looking at a person and guessing wether they are a homeless person or a graduate math major. 🙂 Usually the math majors are cleaner, but they both mumble to themselves all the time and seem to be living in another universe. 🙂

Of course, now somebody homeless is probably going to post a fuck you. Oh well, just chalk it up to being an arrogant engineer.

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**Author:** ![FlippyFly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FlippyFly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlippyFly)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/145 "2006-02-18T20:18:37Z")

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> [@Una Persson](#):
>
> It should be noted that there are other pecking orders as well involving engineers.

And don’t forget about the different disciplines. For example, I have often heard industrial engineering (IE) referred to as “Imaginary Engineering” – due mainly to the fact that it encompasses things like ergonomics and work force management – getting dangerously close to things that are measured qualitatively.

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**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/146 "2006-02-18T20:25:35Z")

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> [@Una Persson](#):
>
> I put it in quotes for emphasis as the “subject at hand” or under discussion, to call attention to it. \<snip\>

I don’t mean to nitpick, and I might be misunderstanding you, but you do know that quotes are not used for emphasis, right? They are used to indicate that what you’re saying is not exactly what you mean, or to actually quote someone else. That’s what makes it so funny when you see a sign mis-using quotes -

> [@](#):
>
> “Fresh” meat on sale!

If it’s not actually fresh, what is it?

(I understand now, **Steve**. It’s all become clear. 😃 )

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**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/147 "2006-02-18T21:37:48Z")

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> [@Una Persson](#):
>
> Hmm.
> 
> It should be noted that there are other pecking orders as well involving engineers. Some PE’s have a resentment towards non-PE’s being allowed to call themselves “engineers”. Engineering techs don’t like engineers, thinking that their 2-year degrees qualify them “better” than a 4-year one. And the reverse applies there as well. Lots of people attach “engineer” to their name for some reason and actually have no engineering degree at all, like CompSci majors (I’m excluding those who have a degree in “Computer Engineering”). And then you have titles which water down the profession of Engineering, such as “sheet metal engineer” (auto shop guy), “food products engineer” (grocer), “procedures engineer” (marketing person), and of course “sanitation engineer” (garbage truck driver), all which I’ve actually seen IRL as job titles.
> 
> .

All of you do a lot of qvetching in here about how your title is abused, but I don’t think that really gets you anywhere. You need to fight ignorance in the public at large, and not just by telling people at cocktail parties what an engineer really is. There should be some sort of media campaign, the way Realtors™ do. The abuse of ‘engineer’ comes not only from ludicrous efforts at self-aggrandizement, like with sanitation ‘engineers’, but from the fact that the word has the inertia of centuries of being used to denote all and sundry with a flair for technology, beginning way before there was such a thing as the ABET, or engineering schools as we understand the term today.

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**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/148 "2006-02-18T21:48:47Z")

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**Pizzabrat** , I could post a lengthy explanation of “white van at the corner” syndrome, explain at length how your two examples have little or no rational connection to the premise of the OP, and expound on your lack of creativity with your pitiful whiney pitting based on a widely-held stereotype. Instead, I’ll keep it short and sweet:

1. All generalizations are false, including this one. If you have trouble figuring out how this statement applies to your OP, ask an engineer, logician, mathematician, philosopher, or just about anyone smarter than you.

2. There are arrogant people in all walks of life, but the “arrogance” you percieve in many engineers may well be their social insecurities showing through.

3. Could there, just perhaps, be a tinge of jealousy in your attitude? Did you get turned down by an engineering school? Does your VCR blink 12:00? Did an engineer beat you up and take your lunch money? Or are you just a moron?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/149 "2006-02-18T21:51:00Z")

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Does anyone else find it amusing that the Google ad at the bottom of this page is for humor writing workshops?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/150 "2006-02-18T21:55:37Z")

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> [@catsix](#):
>
> Considering what CoE’s design, there’s relatively little need for us to have a licensed person sign off on a design. A bad processor design isn’t going to collapse in the middle of a hotel one day after years of function and kill a hundred people. Even if there was a PE exam for CoE, I probably wouldn’t take it since there’s no problem getting a job in my field without it.
> 
> I don’t find that there’s anything wrong with that, nor would I be disappointed if there never was a PE exam for CoEs.

Some of the contracts I work on do involve potential injury and loss of life should a piece of computer hardware - or software - fail. I don’t know that a PE exam makes one God damn bit of difference whatsoever in the ability of the person doing the design/coding, but I do know that when a contract calls for all designs to be carried out by PEs, then I do it that way, or turn down the work.

I will not participate in a debate on the validity of this or not, since I’m not asserting anything one way or another. I am only reporting fact. I am certain the experiences of others will present further facts along different lines.

> [@featherlou](#):
>
> I don’t mean to nitpick, and I might be misunderstanding you, but you do know that quotes are not used for emphasis, right? They are used to indicate that what you’re saying is not exactly what you mean, or to actually quote someone else.

It’s a bad habit of mine, mea culpa. That’s one reason I have and employ an Editor.

> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#):
>
> All of you do a lot of qvetching in here about how your title is abused, but I don’t think that really gets you anywhere. You need to fight ignorance in the public at large, and not just by telling people at cocktail parties what an engineer really is. There should be some sort of media campaign, the way Realtors™ do. The abuse of ‘engineer’ comes not only from ludicrous efforts at self-aggrandizement, like with sanitation ‘engineers’, but from the fact that the word has the inertia of centuries of being used to denote all and sundry with a flair for technology, beginning way before there was such a thing as the ABET, or engineering schools as we understand the term today.

I only gave examples of how it was watered down. I was not Pitting it nor qvetching about it. In fact, for the most part I’ve actually given up caring. I was reporting that there was a pecking order that people bought into.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/151 "2006-02-18T22:04:35Z")

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> [@Q.E.D.](#):
>
> A couple what? Neither of those posts demonstrate an “inflated sense of intelligence and rationality”, as you so eloquently put it. Other than the mention of being an engieer, they have nothing to do with your OP. Nothing.

I Agree. But they **are** pretty smarmy.

The essense of both posts (as I interpret them):

The first:

“Did you enjoy the super bowl?”

"As an engineer (I’m one), I thought the Super Bowl was awesome!  
The Second:

Well…res ipsa loquitur

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/152 "2006-02-18T22:19:01Z")

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[A link to the posts to which Q.E.D (quoted above) was responding.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7115320&postcount=17)

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/153 "2006-02-18T22:40:22Z")

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> [@Jeeves](#):
>
> I would like to apologize if that is a serious Fuck you. I was just playing along in the spirit of the thread. I am impressed by mathmeticians, most of them get math in a way I never will, but that is why they are mathmeticians and I am an (aspiring) engineer.
> 
> Of course, on our campus one of the games we play is looking at a person and guessing wether they are a homeless person or a graduate math major. 🙂 Usually the math majors are cleaner, but they both mumble to themselves all the time and seem to be living in another universe. 🙂
> 
> Of course, now somebody homeless is probably going to post a fuck you. Oh well, just chalk it up to being an arrogant engineer.

Of course it was serious, us mathermaticians have no sense of humour.

And I’m homeless.

Fuck you.

🙂

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/154 "2006-02-18T22:41:30Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **Una Persson** said:  
> I will not participate in a debate on the validity of this or not, since I’m not asserting anything one way or another. I am only reporting fact.

Then in the interest of being factual, in the future I would not put Computer Engineering into quotes unless you do exactly the same for every other branch of engineering.

Around here, putting something like that in quotes has been more than once taken as a slam on its validity, as in the many times someone has used ‘“Christian”’ in a thread to describe someone who calls themselves a Christian, but is not really Christian (e.g. Fred Phelps). I appreciate your mea culpa.

I’m not just trying to be mean and nitpicky, but I have enough effort in explaining that no, a CoE is not the same as MCSE. The less people who place doubt on the validity of CoE as real engineering, the better.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\
**Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/155 "2006-02-18T23:52:40Z")

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> [@catsix](#):
>
> Then in the interest of being factual, in the future I would not put Computer Engineering into quotes unless you do exactly the same for every other branch of engineering.

Oh for crying out loud, you’re still doing this? I already explained I wasn’t calling your degree into doubt.

> [@](#):
>
> Around here, putting something like that in quotes has been more than once taken as a slam on its validity, as in the many times someone has used ‘“Christian”’ in a thread to describe someone who calls themselves a Christian, but is not really Christian (e.g. Fred Phelps). I appreciate your mea culpa.

I’ve been “around here” for two years before you were, and one thing we don’t do around here is to keep beating a dead horse and picking on someone when they’ve been asked for clarification over a perceived slight, and polite clarification has been provided explaining no slight was intended.

> [@](#):
>
> I’m not just trying to be mean and nitpicky, but I have enough effort in explaining that no, a CoE is not the same as MCSE. The less people who place doubt on the validity of CoE as real engineering, the better.

And yet, here you are, being just that. Nowhere did I imply that there was equivalency between a degree in Computer Engineering and the MSCE - in fact, I did not denigrate the Computer Engineering degree versus a Mechanical Engineering degree or any other degree that anyone may have, whether honorary or earned. This was clarified, actually.

By all means, keep beating this dead horse and trying to irritate/antagonize someone that was not and is not in any way denigrating you as a person, your profession, your degree, or your education. That sounds productive. :rolleyes:

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/156 "2006-02-19T00:20:41Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> **Una Persson** said:  
> Oh for crying out loud, you’re still doing this? I already explained I wasn’t calling your degree into doubt.

Not the degree, just what it stands for.

> [@](#):
>
> I’ve been “around here” for two years before you were, and one thing we don’t do around here is to keep beating a dead horse and picking on someone when they’ve been asked for clarification over a perceived slight, and polite clarification has been provided explaining no slight was intended.

Right, nobody around here has ever beaten a dead horse before. Thought you’d been around here long enough to know how things work?

> [@](#):
>
> And yet, here you are, being just that. Nowhere did I imply that there was equivalency between a degree in Computer Engineering and the MSCE - in fact, I did not denigrate the Computer Engineering degree versus a Mechanical Engineering degree or any other degree that anyone may have, whether honorary or earned. This was clarified, actually.

In that qualified way in which you point out that no matter what, you’re still the king of the hill around here, since no CoE can do the jobs that you hire people to do.

> [@](#):
>
> By all means, keep beating this dead horse and trying to irritate/antagonize someone that was not and is not in any way denigrating you as a person, your profession, your degree, or your education. That sounds productive.

Well I’m sure it’ll be at least as productive as that post of yours that I responded to wherein yoru whole point seemed to be proving that you do deserve to have your ass kissed for how smart you are.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/157 "2006-02-19T00:34:26Z")

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> [@Una Persson](#):
>
> I only gave examples of how it was watered down. I was not Pitting it nor qvetching about it. In fact, for the most part I’ve actually given up caring. I was reporting that there was a pecking order that people bought into.

I wasn’t singling you out; it’s just something I notice generally.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/158 "2006-02-19T01:05:27Z")

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> [@catsix](#):
>
> (snip)

Hope you feel better soon!

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/159 "2006-02-19T07:29:37Z")

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> [@yoyodyne](#):
>
> [This guy](http://www.technicallyfunny.com/index.htm), and he is pretty funny. At least to me, a NUCLEAR ENGINEER!

That’s the guy.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\
**Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-notice-the-arrogance-among-engineers/344980/160 "2006-02-19T15:59:22Z")

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> [@The Flying Dutchman](#):
>
> bolding mine
> 
> Ah ! It is all becoming clearer to me.
> 
> [Osama bin Laden](http://lexicorient.com/e.o/osama_b_laden.htm)
> 
> Its fatigue is it? Pictures I’ve seen of bin Laden sure seem to convey fatigue.

He’s a civil engineer? He doesn’t seem very civil at all. Most of us never killed anyone, never tried to spread terror, so I don’t get the reference.

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