# Anyone else questioning the extent of "social isolation"? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 17, 2020, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671 "2020-03-17T18:26:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/501 "2020-04-01T00:15:57Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Oh, FFS, I’m trying to follow the rules about what content belongs in this thread. In other threads, OTOH, I have posted plenty about that, which would be off topic here. Such as this post, for example, from way back in February: > > And actually, I _have_ been offering advice: as noted above, I’ve been saying for a while now that the official advice not to wear masks was bullshit propaganda, and it is increasingly becoming clear with each passing day that I was right about that. …if I have a choice of either listening to an experts advice on how far and how long you should stay apart from people during the pandemic and listening to a layman who is “just asking questions” and didn’t actually offer any advice I’ll listen to the expert. Is any part of what I wrote unclear? I’m not talking about your post in February, I’m not talking about your opinions about masks, I’m talking specifically about Dr Wiles advice and your commentary around that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/502 "2020-04-01T00:52:34Z")
Nice try. You said: > [@](#): > > But you don’t think we should be talking about that either, so lets just pretend that isn’t happening. Which is a false, strawman allegation, one of many flying around this thread. > [@monstro](#): > > I was out walking a few minutes ago. I do my best thinking when I’m walking. > > I’m just going throw this out for folks to chew on. I’m not an epidemiologist, but my job is in public health (on the environmental side). A lot of the decisions we make in my arena are based on whatever the Powers that Be consider acceptable losses. Acceptable losses of wildlife habitat, for instance. And yep, acceptable losses of human life too. > > Science can tell us that if we allow X, we can expect to see a Y% decrease to a resource over Z amount of time. But science does not tell us whether Y% is acceptable. Typically, government policy dictates what an acceptable loss is, and then we use science to find the “X” that is associated with that acceptable loss. So for instance, X might be the maximum amount of a pesticide that is allowed in food. > > Now in the case of the 6 ft social distance, my educated guess is that a ton of research has found that 6 ft is the maximum social distance the average person can reasonably attain most of the time without work productivity and quality of life being impacted above some threshold. The mortality predicted if 90% of the population maintains social distancing at or greater than 6 ft for some extended period time during the COVID-19 pandemic equals the acceptable loss. > > So the cold, calculating risk assessor in me thinks that 6 ft was not chosen because it is especially safe. I suspect it was chosen because it was deemed to be the guideline with the highest likelihood of being complied with by most of the population most of the time. Perhaps a social distance of 25 ft would reduce the infection rate by 90%, while 6 ft just reduces it by 50%. But 25 ft isn’t realistic for most people most of the time. Why recommend something that isn’t attainable? When it comes to public policy, you gotta recommend something that is realistic and then accept whatever follows from that. That’s your acceptable loss. > > So, **Manda JO** , this is why I don’t feel comfortable with people acting like there’s a “safe” here. For all we know, 6 feet really isn’t all that safe in any sense of the word. For all we know, standing 6 feet away from the average infected person only reduces your risk of getting infected by a small amount compared to if you stood right next to them. _But it’s still something._ Just like only going grocery shopping once a week versus twice a week is something, even if going to the store just one time is sufficient to get you infected. If we all try to do as many things as we can to mitigate risk, we will definitely see an overall reduction in potential losses across the population. But we as individuals can do all of these things and still find ourselves among the unlucky folks considered “acceptable losses”.☹ > :(:(:(:(☹ So why is the approach by many here so dramatically different from what you are (I believe correctly) describing as the best public health approach? How come “why recommend something if it isn’t attainable” or “not realistic” doesn’t apply to the recommendations provided in this thread? BTW, I personally bought a shitload of rice and beans in early March, and I advocated to my wife that we just hunker down and live off that for maybe months if we could. It’s what I would have done if I lived alone. But she wouldn’t go for that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/503 "2020-04-01T01:09:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Nice try. You said: > > Which is a false, strawman allegation, one of many flying around this thread. …this is completely unrelated to what I just talked about. This was talking about **something else**. In context: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > Speaking of which, this article came out yesterday interviewing a Chinese scientist who said this has been a big mistake made in the West, and that’s not all he thinks we’re failing to learn from Asian countries: > > [https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says#](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/not-wearing-masks-protect-against-coronavirus-big-mistake-top-chinese-scientist-says#) > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think its been pointed out over and over again the failures to learn from Asian countries over this. And the failure of the US Administration has been criminal. But you don’t think we should be talking about that either, so lets just pretend that isn’t happening. The problem with returning to an argument that had pretty much died several days later is that it becomes very easy to be confused what it was we were originally talking about. Its clear that in context I was addressing a specific point that you made. When you quoted me before it (unintentionally) removed that context because the quote system here sometimes strips out quotes. But this comment had nothing to do with the other conversation we were having. Don’t conflate the two. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/504 "2020-04-01T01:17:52Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So why is the approach by many here so dramatically different from what you are (I believe correctly) describing as the best public health approach? How come “why recommend something if it isn’t attainable” or “not realistic” doesn’t apply to the recommendations provided in this thread? I’m not sure what you’re asking, but I guess I’ll take a stab. There is a difference between millions of faceless, nameless randos and the community of SDMB posters. The former is going to have lots of folks with special circumstances, as well as a lot of douchebags, contrarians, idiots, and jerks. No one really has high expectations for the faceless, nameless millions. But I do have high expectations for SDMB posters. Like, I wouldn’t expect SDMB posters to hoard all the TP and hang out on a crowded beach during the middle of a global pandemic. But I do expect the masses to do stuff like this since that’s people for ya. I don’t think it is realistic to expect the average person to never break social distancing. But I do expect the average SDMB poster to at least be on board with it. If we can’t be on board with it, then there’s no hope for the “millions”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/505 "2020-04-01T01:51:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think it is realistic to expect the average person to never break social distancing. But I do expect the average SDMB poster to at least be on board with it. If we can’t be on board with it, then there’s no hope for the “millions”. Cite for anything **Manda Jo** has suggested being “not on board with social distancing”? Plenty of people have strawmanned her position as being something like that, but I have seen no evidence for it–unless you crank the dials to make “social distancing” synonymous with “complete lockdown”, and I don’t think the experts would agree with that. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/506 "2020-04-01T02:00:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Cite for anything **Manda Jo** has suggested being “not on board with social distancing”? Plenty of people have strawmanned her position as being something like that, but I have seen no evidence for it–unless you crank the dials to make “social distancing” synonymous with “complete lockdown”, and I don’t think the experts would agree with that. :dubious: Um, I wasn’t saying anything about **Manda JO** or anyone else. Maybe you need to stop being so combative and read for comprehension. I answered your question without any attitude. I think I deserve the same respect from you. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/508 "2020-04-01T02:15:51Z")
Spam reported. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/509 "2020-04-01T02:16:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Um, I wasn’t saying anything about **Manda JO** or anyone else. Maybe you need to stop being so combative and read for comprehension. I answered your question without any attitude. I think I deserve the same respect from you. The context was the ongoing pile-on regarding **Manda Jo’s** comments and questions. That was what I was referencing in \*my \*comments, so since you responded to me, I took it as a given that you had not lost the plot. Apparently I gave you too much credit in that regard–_mea culpa._ ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/510 "2020-04-01T02:19:10Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > The context was the ongoing pile-on regarding **Manda Jo’s** comments and questions. That was what I was referencing in \*my \*comments, so since you responded to me, I took it as a given that you had not lost the plot. Apparently I gave you too much credit in that regard–_mea culpa._ Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/511 "2020-04-01T05:21:38Z")
Bay Area, California has extended its [shelter in place mandate](https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/31/bay-area-shelter-in-place-gets-longer-more-restrictive-as-coronavirus-cases-rise/) and added more restrictions. Some of the ones I’ve seen mentioned in this thread are walking in the neighborhood and going to the grocery store. Also, on face masks. > [@](#): > > The new orders, which will go into effect throughout the Bay Area at midnight Wednesday and last through May 3, close playgrounds, dog parks and other shared recreational spaces, > . . . > “Your need for exercise and walking the dog should really be limited to your immediate surroundings,” said Preston Merchant, a spokesperson with San Mateo County Health. And in recent days, his county and others have closed parks, beaches and other recreation areas, giving residents fewer places to go. [Coronavirus: Are grocery stores safe as more workers, shoppers get sick? Bay Area health officials announce new safety restrictions: no reusable bags, suggest customer limits](https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/31/coronavirus-are-grocery-stores-safe-as-more-workers-shoppers-get-sick/) > [@](#): > > But on Tuesday, Bay Area health officials stepped up requirements for grocers and other essential businesses allowed to stay open, banning reusable bags, prohibiting self-service and bulk foods, requiring hand sanitizer be stocked at checkouts and other key points, and mandating protocols to keep customers at least 6-feet apart. > . . . > Cindy Chavez, president of the Santa Clara County board of supervisors, said residents should not be going to the grocery store every day and that they should be used “only for necessities and not as an outing.” The governor of CA hasn’t yet decided if people should be wearing face masks when they leave the house but will issue guidance soon. > [@](#): > > Newsom also promised that his administration, within the next day or so, would issue guidance clarifying whether or not people should be wearing masks when they leave the house. That comes as the CDC, which had not recommended the use of masks for healthy people, reportedly is reconsidering its position. On the topic on how the coronavirus is transmitted, this has probably already been posted, but I haven’t seen it here. [Coronavirus lives for hours in air particles and days on surfaces, new US study shows](https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/18/coronavirus-lives-for-hours-in-air-particles-and-days-on-surfaces-new-us-study-shows.html) This was reported on March 18, 2020. I don’t know if there are newer findings. > [@](#): > > They found that COVID-19 was detectable in aerosols for up to three hours, up to four hours on copper and up to 24 hours on cardboard. The new coronavirus can also last up to three days on plastic and stainless steel, the scientists concluded, adding the amount of the virus left on those surfaces decreases over time. Aerosols are solid or liquid particles that hang in the air, including fog, dust, and gas commonly used in medical procedures like ventilation and nebulizers. > > The results suggest “that people may acquire the virus through the air and after touching contaminated objects,” Dr. Neeltje van Doremalen, a scientist from NIH and a lead researcher on the study, said in a press release announcing the findings Tuesday evening. > . . . > Health officials have known the respiratory disease spreads through human-to-human contact, droplets carried through sneezing and coughing as well as germs left on inanimate objects. The coronavirus can also become airborne, staying suspended in the air for hours, depending on the heat and humidity, they said. This next [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f4sUNWkq60&feature=youtu.be) is completely unscientific and is more for entertainment. Mythbusters did an experiment trying to see how far droplets could land from a sneeze. The farthest they could detect was 17 feet. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/512 "2020-04-01T07:11:32Z")
The updated [Alameda County FAQS](https://covid-19.acgov.org/index.page) close playgrounds, but do not mention banning reusable bags. At my supermarket I’ve been bagging my stuff myself. Does the new rule in Santa Clara county mean that the stores are no longer required to charge for plastic bags? As for dog walking, the Alameda County FAQ just requires walkers to keep their distance from others. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/513 "2020-04-01T17:11:03Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Cite for anything **Manda Jo** has suggested being “not on board with social distancing”? Plenty of people have strawmanned her position as being something like that, but I have seen no evidence for it–unless you crank the dials to make “social distancing” synonymous with “complete lockdown”, and I don’t think the experts would agree with that. :dubious: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > The context was the ongoing pile-on regarding **Manda Jo’s** comments and questions. What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody has suggested **Manda JO** is opposed to social distancing. She is obviously in favor of the practice. If she wasn’t, she wouldn’t be looking for rules on how to do it right. And the only “pile on” is in your own fevered imagination. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/514 "2020-04-01T17:23:12Z")
No, some people didn’t read too closely and didn’t see her outright declaration of totally doing social distancing. And I accused her of looking for a loophole but I don’t doubt she’s been scrupulous. IMHO, she’s going a little stir crazy and thinking “omg, do I have to be THIS DAMN CAREFUL?” I don’t blame her at all even if I got a little exacerbated. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/515 "2020-04-01T17:33:46Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > What the fuck are you talking about? Nobody has suggested **Manda JO** is opposed to social distancing. She is obviously in favor of the practice. If she wasn’t, she wouldn’t be looking for rules on how to do it right. > > And the only “pile on” is in your own fevered imagination. Post 456 seems to imply it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/516 "2020-04-01T17:41:16Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Post 456 seems to imply it. Lol, imply? > [@Helena330](#): > > The people that aren’t doing their part really, really piss me off. I can’t tell you how heart-breaking it is that you’re one of them. But hey, we’re all under some stress. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/517 "2020-04-01T18:44:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Lol, imply? One comment does not constitute a pile-on. I think that there was some level of misunderstanding there, and in fact throughout the thread. We are all frustrated at the ever-changing and conflicting information - and that includes “official” recommendations that conflict with what we may consider common sense. Now let’s all hug it out…um…wave at each other from a suitable distance. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/518 "2020-04-01T18:51:45Z")
I hope **Manda JO** comes back. Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/519 "2020-04-01T19:01:20Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > One comment does not constitute a pile-on. What you said was " Nobody has suggested Manda JO is opposed to social distancing". ---
**Author:** ![Deltree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6de8d8/32.png) [@Deltree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deltree)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/520 "2020-04-01T20:28:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, some people didn’t read too closely and didn’t see her outright declaration of totally doing social distancing. And I accused her of looking for a loophole but I don’t doubt she’s been scrupulous. IMHO, she’s going a little stir crazy and thinking “omg, do I have to be THIS DAMN CAREFUL?” I don’t blame her at all even if I got a little **exacerbated**. I don’t think that word means what you think it means. [Cite.](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=exacerbate) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671/521 "2020-04-01T21:00:22Z")
Or maybe I meant “exasperated”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-questioning-the-extent-of-social-isolation/849671.md?page=27)