# Anyone else surprised (dismayed?) by Las Vegas? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948 "2023-03-09T21:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/341 "2023-04-06T14:07:09Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Not quite. There’s the old Frontier lot across the street from Wynncore, the lot Peppermill is sitting on and the lot just north of Fountainbleau, where they are rumored to be looking at for a new WNBA arena complex. Plus the festival grounds opposite Sahara. I certainly agree there’s vacant land along the north Strip. But it seems to me that compared to the mega-scale of the more modern properties farther south, Circus Circus is one of the few contiguous lots large enough for another mega project. I’ve not been up there in person recently and the overhead views on Google & Bing are not real up to date. But they aren’t promising either. Whether smaller projects are viable in the years ahead is one of the big questions the industry is grappling with. And as @JRDelirious says just above, the history of Vegas from 1980s to now is littered with projects that got half built and ran out of money or ran into a falling economy. Which doesn’t harm Circus Circus’ current owner’s slumlord maneuver, but does mean they’re now trapped doing it until/unless somebody comes along with a lot of money and bravery to take the lot off their hands. Circus Circus’ real risk is they end up having to play slumlord so long it really does turn into a slum first. Which would be a lot less profitable than what they’re used to. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/342 "2023-04-06T14:14:11Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Whether smaller projects are viable in the years ahead is one of the big questions the industry is grappling with. Smaller seems to be the way developers are going after the Fontainebleau disaster. There is a new hotel (The Majestic) going in directly opposite the South portico of the LVCC (no casino), and they just bulldozed the southeast corner of LVB and Harmon for a new project as well. Neither lot is what you would call expansive. You are entirely correct about the questions Circus Circus is having to deal with. Either they invest a few hundred million pretty soon, or the dump will get condemned as being an affront to the Strip. And that’s saying a lot! ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/343 "2023-04-06T15:18:03Z")
Umm, it’s a tongue-and-cheek statement poking fun at an event that is intended to be tongue-and-cheek (e.g. not to be taken seriously). ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/344 "2023-04-06T16:02:46Z")
For me, Vegas has been a place to stop for the night, see a show or museum, and be on my way. My coolest Las Vegas-related experience actually began in Zion, where we met 80 year-old Locatelli Battista (owner of [Battista’s Hole in the Wall](https://secret.vegas/battistas-hole-in-the-wall/)) on the Angels Landing trail. When we got to the summit he burst out into song and pulled out a “Battista Sings” CD from his pack and gave it to us. What a character! On our way back we spent the night in Las Vegas and went to his restaurant for dinner. We mentioned meeting him to the bartender, who just happened to be his niece, and she treated us to a couple of rounds of drinks. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/345 "2023-04-06T18:17:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Circus Circus has been simply appalling for 20 years now. But their fancy restaurant, cleverly named “The Steakhouse” used to be truly great, despite the tawdry surroundings. I went to Circus Circus around 40 years ago. Not a total dump then, but not someplace I ever wanted to go back to. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/346 "2023-04-06T18:24:07Z")
We went there about 10 years ago just because they were hosting a Chuck Jones exhibit. There was nothing else in the building to tempt us to stay one minute longer. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/347 "2023-04-06T18:32:44Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The games now pay out 6:5 on a blackjack, which makes them about three times as bad for average players and impossible to beat for advantage players. The games are dealt from 6-deck shoes or continuous shuffle machines, which makes card counting impossible. And here I thought our cruise liner was just taking advantage of a captive audience. (Same thing happened there.) You had to pay $35 a hand to play two deck blackjack were you could actually hold the cards. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/348 "2023-04-06T18:54:13Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Well, we are a week into our two week vacation in Vegas. We are staying at Resorts World on the north end of the strip, and it’s very nice. It only opened in 2021, which was why we picked it. We knew it would be clean, have decent ventilation for Covid, etc. And all that is true. No complaints at all. Well, Imhave complaints about some of their technology, but I’ll save that for other threads. > > The prices are high, but not as high as I thought. You can get a decent entree’ in a nice restaurant here for under $30. And there’s a Denny’s across the street for days when you just want a cheap meal. Note that pretty much every “cheap” buffet closed for COVID-19 reasons and never reopened. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Unfortunately, Vegas seems to have ruined blackjack. The games now pay out 6:5 on a blackjack, which makes them about three times as bad for average players and impossible to beat for advantage players. The games are dealt from 6-deck shoes or continuous shuffle machines, which makes card counting impossible. > > The poker here is also a bust for us. One of the reasons we picked the place is because they advertised a bunch of limit poker games, and my wife doesn’t like pot limit and no limit and won’t play them. Unfortunately, the limit games are only theoretical. They haven’t actually opened a limit table since we got here, and I’m not going to play and abandon my wife, so we haven’t played at all. They do have a ‘mixed’ 4-8 limit that sometimes runs, but I’m not sitting down at a poker table to play games I’ve never even heard of. > > I looked at the pay tables for video poker, and they are bad as well. The best I could find was just over 97% payback. You can come out ahead on comps though, because drinks here are really expensive. Expect $10 for a beer and $16 to 25 for a mixed cocktail. A glass of wine is 17. But you can play .25 video poker and get your drinks comped, which we did. And our price for the stay included $35 in drink credits per day, so when you include all that it’s not bad. Have you ever been to Vegas before? Blackjack on the Strip has been notoriously bad for over a decade now. First, it was the single-deck and double-deck games that all went to 6-5, for the somewhat obvious reason that nobody is a good enough counter to beat that game, and now all of the games on the Strip are, mainly because gambling on the Strip is now secondary to the shows, clubs, and pools. Want to play craps? Have fun finding a table where the minimum is under $15. Video Poker’s downturn is more recent. Just before COVID-19 struck, you could play 9/6 Jacks or Better for quarters at the Cromwell; now, you’re lucky to find 8/5, and even when you do, check to make sure the Royal Flush still pays 800. Most of the crowd drives up I-15 on Friday night and returns on Sunday morning. They can gamble at any number of places in California now (well, except for sports betting), and with much better rules. The casinos are targeting the tourists, who consider gambling as something to do while waiting for the club to open, so they fleece them for all they’re worth because nobody is smart enough to notice. I notice you don’t mention going downtown. Hop on a Deuce bus ($8 for a one-day pass; $20 for three days) headed north. In addition to better gambling, although downtown is starting to turn into the Strip in this regard, there’s The Mob Museum, which is in the old federal courthouse (and, in fact, one of the courtrooms is used to show a short film). > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Yesterday we walked over to Circus Circus, and man was that place depressing. It’s old, crowded, and full of screaming kids and inattentive parents letting their kids run amok while the parents gamble their future away at the slots. Ugh. Is there a reason you were anywhere near Circus Circus other than its steakhouse? There shouldn’t be, and pretty much for the reasons you mentioned. There should be a sign on all highways heading into Vegas; “Coming with kids? Take I-15 South to Disneyland; it’s probably actually cheaper, too.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/349 "2023-04-06T19:30:11Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > … > there’s The Mob Museum, which is in the old federal courthouse (and, in fact, one of the courtrooms is used to show a short film). > … I just love the symbolism of all that. That’s the jaunty irreverent Vegas I remember from my era there. Are you a Vegas local now, or just a highly experienced visitor? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/350 "2023-04-06T21:28:11Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Have you ever been to Vegas before? Blackjack on the Strip has been notoriously bad for over a decade now. First, it was the single-deck and double-deck games that all went to 6-5, for the somewhat obvious reason that nobody is a good enough counter to beat that game, and now all of the games on the Strip are, mainly because gambling on the Strip is now secondary to the shows, clubs, and pools. Want to play craps? Have fun finding a table where the minimum is under $15. I’ve been to Vegas lots, and was a pro gambler for a few years in the late 90’s / early 2000’s. Mostly poker, but some blackjack as well. Back then you could find 4-deck shoes with decent rules and pretty good penetration. Poker was mostly limit, with a rake of 5% to a max of $3 in the lower limit games. My favorite game was 10-20 to 20-40 limit holdem or Omaha. Those games were very soft back then. My theory about what happened to limit poker was A) the popularity of the WSOP rose culturally, driving people to no-likit, and B) the dasinos got greedy and raisedvthe rake in oow limit to 10% up to $5. Add in the jackpot drops, and low limit players just get eaten alive by the rake. > [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > I notice you don’t mention going downtown. Hop on a Deuce bus ($8 for a one-day pass; $20 for three days) headed north. In addition to better gambling, although downtown is starting to turn into the Strip in this regard, there’s The Mob Museum, which is in the old federal courthouse (and, in fact, one of the courtrooms is used to show a short film). We’re planning to go to the mob museum, so we’ll check out some downtown casinos while we are there. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/351 "2023-04-06T21:51:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The games are dealt from 6-deck shoes or continuous shuffle machines, which makes card counting impossible. I know bupkis about gambling, have never played blackjack, and defer to your experience. But I’ve several times watched [this Vanity Fair video where a casino security consultant named Sal Piacente breaks down cheating scenes from movies.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki4Fbctwnjs) According to him, it’s possible to count cards on a six-deck shoe, since all you’re doing is noting the ratio of high cards to low. I could see that this would tax the memory, but if you knew the number of decks in the shoe, couldn’t you keep a mental count of the high cards that have appeared? If “high card” means “10 or above”, then there’s only 150 in a six-deck shoe, right? Feel free to correct my ignorance - like I said, I’ve never played blackjack or even been to a casino. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/352 "2023-04-06T22:11:07Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > I could see that this would tax the memory, but if you knew the number of decks in the shoe, couldn’t you keep a mental count of the high cards that have appeared? If “high card” means “10 or above”, then there’s only 150 in a six-deck shoe, right? Yes, you can count cards in a shoe game. You keep the same running count as you would in a single- or double-deck game; but then you divide that count by the number of decks remaining. This has the effect of diluting any perceived imbalance in high and low cards. Plus, the dealer will generally reshuffle when there’s still plenty of cards in the shoe; so you never get to the point where you’re dividing by 1. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/353 "2023-04-06T22:11:56Z")
ETA: Mostly ninja-ed. What really matters is how deep they go into the shoe before a total reshuffle. Assuming perfect counting, any given shoe as you deal through it might get more lopsided in favor of the house or the player. Or might just wobble back and forth close to even the whole way through. The whole point of counting is to know which lean you’ve got and bet heavy or light as appropriate to maximize big wins and minimize big losses. If you have an e.g. 6-deck shoe and they always shuffle after ~ 3 decks have been played, that limits how lopsided the next cards were just before the shuffle. It’s a way to statistically limit the number of times the remaining deck is lopsided enough that the next hand is especially favorable or unfavorable. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/354 "2023-04-06T22:13:07Z")
Oh, it’s very easy to count a six deck shoe: easier than counting single deck, which really requires a more advanced counting system. The problem is that the player’s advantage comes from situations where there are a higher percentage of tens and aces left in the shoe, because just through variance an abnormally large percentage of low cards has been seen. A ten and ace rich shoe favors the player primarily because of the increased chance of getting a blackjack. If you get a blackjack you get paid 3:2, but if the dealer gets one you just lose your bet, so even money. If blackjacks pay closer to even money (6:5), this advantage goes way down. The problem with a six deck shoe is that the effect of each card removal is much smaller when there are a lot more cards to be seen. So you typically don’t get to big positive counts where the player has a huge advantage until you are near the end of the shoe. The casino can thwart counters by using six deck shoes and reshuffling while,there are still two decks in the shoe, thus reducing greatly the situations where the shoe is full of player-favoring cards. There is a smaller amount of advantage that can be gained by alternating you playing strategy based on the count. For example, a 16 vs a dealer’s ten. That hand should be hit any time the count is negative, and you should stay if the count is positive. Counting cards in multiole deck black is very simple. Start with a count of zero when the shoe is shuffled. Every time you see a ten valued card or an ace, subtract one from the count. Any time you see a 2,3,4,5,6 you add one to the count. 7,8,9 are ignored. This is a basic ‘hi-lo’ count. So if you get dealt T7 and the dealer has a 4 showing, the count is still zero. You stand, and the dealer hits a 7,5,8 and busts. The count is now +1. Or rather, this is the raw, or ‘running’ count. Your real advantage is based on how many extra high cards there are _per deck_. So at the start of a six deck shoe, the true count is found by dividing the running count by six. The player isually has the advantage at a true count of +2 to +3, depending on rules. So you can see that near the beginning of the shoe there would have to be 12 to 18 times as many low cards as high cards seen before you’d have the advantage. That’s rare. But with only one deck left, a running count of 5 is a true count of 5 and a big advantage. The more decks in a shoe, the less often situations that favor the player arise. Then the only way to beat the games is to only sit down to bet when the count is very high. But that’s easily thearted by the casino not allowing mid-shoe entry. That’s probably way more than you wanted to know. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/355 "2023-04-06T22:16:33Z")
And getting fussy if your low- and high- bets are too extreme from each other. Which table limits have a way of managing non-confrontationally. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/356 "2023-04-06T22:27:07Z")
The best card counting camouflage team I heard of was a husband and wife who would play together. He’d sit down to play and she’d stand and watch. He’d keep trying to put out big bets and she would berate him and tell him not to, and he’d grmpily bet the minimum. But once in a while she’d have to go to the washroom, and then he’d cackle and say, “okay, let’s have fun!” and put out huge bets. Of course, she was the counter, and when she got up for the ‘lady’s room’ it was his signal that the count was huge and he could spread humongous bets as the degenerate gambler unleashed. And when she came back, she’d yell at him for betting so much, win or lose, and give them an excuse to beat it before the casino tracked their play. They probably mimicked behaviour the casino sees all the time, and blended right in. They may still be doing it somewhere for all I know. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/357 "2023-04-06T22:27:44Z")
Okay, thanks, ignorance fought. I figured it was more complicated than the video made it seem. That’s one of the reasons gambling doesn’t interest me, BTW - my ADD means all that calculating would suck the fun right out of a game. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/358 "2023-04-06T22:30:14Z")
> [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > , BTW - my ADD means all that calculating would suck the fun right out of a game. I’m not ADD, but I have much more fun depending on pure luck (and proper strategy). I’ve tried counting, and it’s too much like work. After decades of playing blackjack, I don’t have to think at all to know the right decision based on the cards showing, and I just sit back, beer in hand, and enjoy the rhythm of the game. Sometimes I win. Often I lose. But I enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/359 "2023-04-06T22:32:47Z")
I enjoyed that the most. After a while you get fast at the count. Imwould count carss in pairs, and you soon learn to pattern match them and cut your workload right down. For example: T7 = -1 JQ = -2 87 = 0 J3 = 0 45 = +2 The more you do it, the faster you get. And you get a feel for what a certain running count means just by glancing at the size of the stack of remaining cards in the shoe. I used to be able to keep the count going while chatting with a pit boss or ordering a drink, even at a crowded table, without obviously doing so, ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2023, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948/360 "2023-04-06T22:34:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I enjoyed that the most. After a while you get fast at the count. Imwould count carss in pairs, and you soon learn to pattern match them and cut your workload right down. For example: > > T7 = -1 > JQ = -2 > 87 = 0 > J3 = 0 > 45 = +2 > > The more you do it, the faster you get. And you get a feel for what a certain running count means just by glancing at the size of the stack of remaining cards in the shoe. I used to be able to keep the count going while chatting with a pit boss or ordering a drink, even at a crowded table, without obviously doing so I bow to your skill, as well as your degeneracy. 😁 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-else-surprised-dismayed-by-las-vegas/980948.md?page=19)