# Anyone familiar with this racist term? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 10, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936 "2017-07-10T17:27:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/81 "2017-07-13T10:34:52Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say “nigger”. > [@Riemann](#): > > I am familiar with the phrase\* (I grew up in London in the 70s). I would only have associated it with clueless old people or perhaps equally clueless members of the upper classes. It is astonishing that such cluelessness is alive and well in 2017. And perhaps no coincidence that the phrase was uttered within the confines of the equally anachronistic East India Club. Clueless, old, upper class. And yet somehow it found it’s way into the mouth of a Tory MP. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/82 "2017-07-13T10:42:55Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > The BBC say: > > \*The phrase originated in the American Deep South in the mid-19th Century and is thought to have referred to slaves having to conceal themselves as they sought to flee north and secure their freedom. > It was subsequently used in the 20th Century - including by a number of leading novelists - as a metaphor to describe a hidden fact or problem. > \* > In the UK I personally have never heard it used to suggest any kind of mixed heritage. > > However the contained racist slur means it is automatically offensively archaic today. It is a hopelessly outdated expression from a previous era when Agatha Christie, for example, could call a story ‘ **Ten Little Niggers** ’ or a WW2 Dambusters pilot could call his black dog ‘ **Nigger**.’ > > TCMF-2L I watched Dambusters not long ago for the first time. The main character doesn’t turn up till half way through the movie and his first line is “Nigger!”. I laughed out loud from surprise. Then he allows the dog to be fed alcohol. Then he locks it in a hot car with the windows rolled up. Then it’s running around without a lead and gets hit by a car and dies. The word nigger turns out not to be my biggest issue with the film. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/83 "2017-07-13T20:00:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I am familiar with that phrase in two different context. As an American I heard it as a way of saying: That person has some black ancestry from way back when. > > But in the early 90s, I was traveling to England a lot, and would work with my British counterparts in putting together presentations for the work we were doing. At one point, we were discussing some fairly complicated procedures, and one of the Brits made a comment about “a nigger in the woodpile” … Later, it was explained to me that it meant there was something “not right” about it. Both usages are the same - something is suspicious. In the South, it tends to mean a white person has exhibited a (stereotypically) black trait. The last time I heard it referenced _anywhere_ was Chill Mitchell and Chi McBride’s characters on “the John Larroquette Show” talking about **The Bell Curve** when it had just come out. When I heard about this, it was more of a shock that the speaker was under 90, really. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/84 "2017-07-14T00:04:44Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > The BBC say: > > \*The phrase originated in the American Deep South in the mid-19th Century and is thought to have referred to slaves having to conceal themselves as they sought to flee north and secure their freedom. > It was subsequently used in the 20th Century - including by a number of leading novelists - as a metaphor to describe a hidden fact or problem. > \* > TCMF-2L I’d like to see a reference to the phrase that pre-dates the political cartoon I posted above, because I’d be willing to bet that this particular cartoon was the actual origin of the phrase. For those who don’t want to go to the linked picture, it shows Abraham Lincoln sitting atop a structure made of fence rails and labeled “Republican Platform” A black man “hides” in middle of the structure. > [@](#): > > An anti-abolitionist parody of Republican efforts to play down the antislavery plank in their 1860 platform. Horace Greeley, the prominent New York publicist of the party, stands at left reassuring a man identified as “Young America.” “I assure you my friend,” he says, “that you can safely vote our ticket, for we have no connection with the Abolition party, but our Platform is composed entirely of rails, split by our Candidate.” Young America, who represents progressive Democrats, points insistently toward the [“Republican Platform” structure]. He tells Greeley, “It’s no use old fellow! you can’t pull that wool over my eyes for I can see ‘the Nigger’ peeping through the rails.” Meanwhile, Lincoln reflects, “Little did I think when I split these rails that they would be the means of elevating me to my present position.” This fits the metaphorical meaning both in terms of hiding something and in terms of the hiding that idea is shameful to racists (which, for a racist, would be true of having a black ancestor or advocating fair treatment to black people) OTOH, I can see constructing a fake woodpile to hide fleeing slaves, so it may just be something to do with the underground railroad. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/85 "2017-07-14T00:37:12Z")
The phrase was alive as recently as restricted neighborhoods, when the last anti-miscegenation laws had been struck down, but some places to live were still restricted. I don’t remember what movie it was, but I remember very vividly some movie (or TV show) where a white man with a black wife was told not to worry about trying to buy a house in a restricted neighborhood, because he could always hide his wife in the woodpile. I’m thinking it was from the early 70s. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/86 "2017-07-14T00:55:47Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > …a white man with a black wife was told not to worry about trying to buy a house in a restricted neighborhood, because he could always hide his wife in the woodpile. I assume that this was intended as a joke, taking the old racist metaphor in a preposterous literal way; perhaps making a serious underlying observation on the continued prevalence of racism in the area? As such, I don’t see that there’s _necessarily_ any inherent racist intent in making the joke, although there could be. Whether the joke is appropriate would, of course, depend on who said it to whom, and surrounding circumstances; I wouldn’t touch it with a bargepole. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/87 "2017-07-14T01:19:06Z")
In defense of Dr. Seuss (I can’t believe I just typed that), he was the author of this plea for tolerance. > **[The Sneetches and Other Stories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories)** > > The Sneetches and Other Stories is a collection of stories by American children's author Dr. Seuss, published in 1961. It is composed of four separate stories with themes of tolerance, diversity, and compromise: "The Sneetches", "The Zax", "Too Many Daves", and "What Was I Scared Of?". Based on an online poll, the National Education Association listed the book as one of its "Teachers' Top 100 Books for Children". In 2012 it was ranked number 63 among the Top 100 Picture Books in a survey publi Th... ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/88 "2017-07-14T01:19:10Z")
Never heard anyone use it in my life. But I’m pretty certain there’s no connection to black ancestry. The proper slang term for that is “a touch of the tar brush.” Herbert Bayard Swope: “Did you boys know I have a little Jewish blood in me?” Alexander Woollcott: “Yeah, and Paul Robeson has a touch of the tar brush.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/89 "2017-07-14T01:22:42Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Never heard anyone use it in my life. But I’m pretty certain there’s no connection to black ancestry… Um… when they say that anecdotes are not evidence, I don’t think the implication is that _no experience whatsoever_ of something imparts authority. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/90 "2017-07-14T02:11:15Z")
Yes, I’ve heard it in reference to my mom and her siblings, who are (or in Mom’s case, was) 1/8th black. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/91 "2017-07-14T02:32:47Z")
I’ve never heard anyone use the phrase in real life, but I’ve often seen the phrase used in old mystery novels by people like Agatha Christie and Erle Stanley Gardner. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/92 "2017-07-14T03:32:36Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > I had heard it and interpreted it as to mean someone’s ancestry included people they might not want to claim. And I pretty much think that’s how it was used when I heard it. > > However, a google search brought this up: > [Category:1860s political cartoons of the United States - Wikimedia Commons](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:1860s_political_cartoons_of_the_United_States#/media/File:The_Nigger_in_the_Woodpile.jpg) > > This looks like it might even be the origin of the phrase > [@Zyada](#): > > I’d like to see a reference to the phrase that pre-dates the political cartoon I posted above, because I’d be willing to bet that this particular cartoon was the actual origin of the phrase. Your wish is my command. A newspaper article in the 1/4/1844 _Cleveland Herald_ > [@](#): > > “The > singular tenacity, and suspicious action of those urging this gratuity to the > Trust Company, leave but little doubt as to the location of the “nigger in the > wood pile.” [para] This may be pronounced _coarse_ language, but it is not used > for personal application. It is high time that plain language should be spoken > . . . .” Found by a SDMB member who belongs to the Linguist List, as do I. Back to you, **Zyada** ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/93 "2017-07-14T03:44:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Um… when they say that anecdotes are not evidence, I don’t think the implication is that _no experience whatsoever_ of something imparts authority. I said I never heard anyone say it in real life. I’ve encountered it many times in the realms of literature. My point was, it means “something fishy,” not “you are part black.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/94 "2017-07-14T06:31:47Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > I said I never heard anyone say it in real life. I’ve encountered it many times in the realms of literature. > > My point was, it means “something fishy,” not “you are part black.” It means both. But both are related. The “something fishy” can mean “he’s got some black ancestors”. Cites have been given in this thread. Sorry you’ve never heard it, but I"m certain there are lots of things every one of us has never heard. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/95 "2017-07-14T07:41:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It means both. But both are related. The “something fishy” can mean “he’s got some black ancestors”. Cites have been given in this thread. Sorry you’ve never heard it, but I"m certain there are lots of things every one of us has never heard. I also have only ever heard the phrase in the “something fishy” context, not related to someone’s ethnicity or ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/96 "2017-07-14T09:23:34Z")
The issue with “something fishy” is that, even in cases that have to do with racism, it could have the same meaning. It’s just that being part black was considered something strange and off. And, at least to me, it makes more sense that way–unless there was some association with fish (or fishy smells) and black people, it seems more generic than that. But, hey. I’m just saying what I think. Maybe you can prove that it was originally only used for racial issues. And if it is used that way today, then fuck those assholes who even still care about the concept itself. But I think its widespread adoption as a race neutral phrase makes it not a candidate to be removed from speech, unlike other language that historically only had a racist meaning. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/97 "2017-07-14T11:31:02Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Never heard anyone use it in my life. But I’m pretty certain there’s no connection to black ancestry. The proper slang term for that is "a touch of the tar brush. That is the _only_ use of the term I’ve ever heard. And I heard it a _lot_ back in the day. Your second term, OTOH, is one _I’ve_ never heard before. Bizarro racist language. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/98 "2017-07-14T11:40:27Z")
> [@TCMF-2L](#): > > In the UK I personally have never heard it used to suggest any kind of mixed heritage. > > However the contained racist slur means it is automatically offensively archaic today. It is a hopelessly outdated expression from a previous era when Agatha Christie, for example, could call a story ‘ **Ten Little Niggers** ’ or a WW2 Dambusters pilot could call his black dog ‘ **Nigger**.’ > > TCMF-2L > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > And regarding the OP, yes, I’ve heard the phrase before, generally from older people and meaning something hidden or secret in someone’s background or situation, with a connotation of said thing being undesirable or underhanded. > > Even I think it’s a staggeringly racist term, though. I’m from the UK and have heard the phrase occasionally (but not for roughly 30-40 years.) I agree with the two posters above. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/99 "2017-07-14T13:01:32Z")
> [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](#): > > The W.C. Fields quote references a “Nubian,” I believe. > [@MrDibble](#): > > What’s a Nubian? Beat me to it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936/100 "2017-07-14T16:40:39Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Your wish is my command. > A newspaper article in the 1/4/1844 _Cleveland Herald_ > Found by a SDMB member who belongs to the Linguist List, as do I. > > Back to you, **Zyada** Thanks! Hard to tell what is going on from that snippet, but it definitely predates the cartoon by quite a bit. I was doubting the possibility of a person hiding in a woodpile, because the ones I’m familiar with wouldn’t be very good places to hide (at least for very long), but I realized that the woodpiles in the day when fire was pretty much how you cooked and heated your house was probably a lot different than today! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-familiar-with-this-racist-term/790936.md?page=6)