# Anyone following the PETA trial in North Carolina? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629 "2007-01-26T21:51:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/41 "2007-01-30T23:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] - It just occurred ot me that somebody’s name (probably a veterinarian) is on the roster for the sodium pentobarbitol used to euthanize those animals. That person is responsible to the DEA for keeping the substances under strict control. If PETA’s internal security was so lax that a couple of employees could take the controlled substances across state lines without anyone being the wiser, the DEA could revoke the vet’s license to use controlled substances in their practice, effectively ending their veterinary career. Daniel [/QUOTE] That’s a good point. Who supplied the SP? I assume you can’t buy it over the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/42 "2007-01-31T12:06:01Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] That’s a good point. Who supplied the SP? I assume you can’t buy it over the internet. [/QUOTE] Nope; you have to have the signature of a licensed person on the order form, if I recall correctly, and the DEA’s safety inspection requires pretty stringent security and tracking of all controlled substances. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/43 "2007-01-31T13:50:09Z")
[Day 7](http://petakillsanimals.com/Trial_Day7.cfm) Among the highlights, PETA is trying to paint the shelter as a horrible gulag for animals, but that was years ago… The district attorney scored a zinger with the witness, leaving her unable to answer a question… The witness tried to make a point of interpreting the law a certain way, which could not be supported by the reading of the statute… The judge refused to allow in hearsay evidence from the defense. I find this fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![BluePitbull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BluePitbull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BluePitbull)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/44 "2007-01-31T14:08:16Z")
Is PETA the one providing the lawyers? Do they actually support what they did? Will they be considered martyrs? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/45 "2007-01-31T21:34:57Z")
Okay, whoever is doing these writeups appears not to understand the enormity of animal euthanasia in this country. It’s almost as if they’re shocked–_shocked_!–to find that euthanasia is taking place within these premises. Of COURSE animals are being euthanized. Quit trying to get us horrified at PETA for performing euthanasia. Only the craziest of crazies–people far crazier than PETA–object to euthanasia being performed on animals. This is a totally bogus line of reasoning. I also note the positive reference to the Center for Consumer Freedom, a despicable bunch of liars (or, rather, a single liar who also shills for restaurants in order to smear Mothers Against Drunk Driving). Is this website one of his fronts? Finally, there’s this: > [@](#): > > Now, Virginia law says that an “animal shelter” has to follow certain rules when “confining or disposing of animals.” And among those rules is this: > > An animal confined pursuant to this section shall be kept for a period of not less than five days, such period to commence on the day immediately following the day the animal is initially confined in the facility, unless sooner claimed by the rightful owner thereof. > > Now, Virginia law says that an “animal shelter” has to follow certain rules when “confining or disposing of animals.” And among those rules is this: > > An animal confined pursuant to this section shall be kept for a period of not less than five days, such period to commence on the day immediately following the day the animal is initially confined in the facility, unless sooner claimed by the rightful owner thereof. Follow their link, though, and you discover that “this section” refers to a requirement that “dogs running at large without the tag required by § 3.1-796.92 or in violation of an ordinance passed pursuant to § 3.1-796.93 to be confined therein.” Dogs running at large: that’s a crucial distinction. That’s saying that if a stray dog is picked up, it must be held for five days to give the owner a chance to find it. Indeed, read later in the passage: > [@](#): > > E. Nothing in this section shall prohibit the immediate euthanasia or disposal by the methods listed in subdivisions 1 through 5 of subsection C of an animal that has been released to a pound, animal shelter, other releasing agency, or animal control officer by the animal’s rightful owner after the rightful owner has read and signed a statement (i) surrendering all property rights in such animal, (ii) stating that no other person has a right of property in the animal, and (iii) acknowledging that the animal may be immediately euthanized or disposed of in accordance with subdivisions 1 through 5 of subsection C. IF the veterinarians and animal shelters in NC were the animals’ rightful owners at the time they released the animals to PETA, THEN it seems clear that section E is the relevant section here. If these shelters/vets WEREN’T the rightful owners of the animals when they gave them to PETA, then they should be in tremendous trouble for giving away animals that weren’t theirs to give away. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/46 "2007-01-31T21:37:01Z")
And [sure enough](http://petakillsanimals.com/about.cfm): > [@](#): > > PETA Kills Animals" is a project of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF), a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the full range of choices that American consumers currently enjoy. In addition to malicious animal-rights activists, we stand up to the “food police,” environmental scaremongers, neo-prohibitionists, meddling bureaucrats, and other self-anointed saints who claim to “know what’s best” for you. Take their reports of the trial with a can of Morton’s. These are people who are hired by the restaurant industry to smear animal rights folks, and they’ve got a history of dishonest behavior in this regard. While this site is useful for some very basic facts of the trial, keep your skepticism close at hand. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/47 "2007-02-01T23:35:18Z")
As I said in my OP, the website has an obvious agenda. But can we not agree that the vet turned over the animals to PETA with the understanding they would take them from their tiny little town, where adoption opportunities were limited, to Norfolk, a much larger city with better opportunities to adopt? That they took healthy animals and didn’t even bother to try to adopt them out? That if the vet employees knew the animals would be killed in their very parking lot they never would have turned them over? I think that’s the case here…PETA employees represented themselves as a way to get animals adopted, and they didn’t even try. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/48 "2007-02-02T00:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] As I said in my OP, the website has an obvious agenda. But can we not agree that the vet turned over the animals to PETA with the understanding they would take them from their tiny little town, where adoption opportunities were limited, to Norfolk, a much larger city with better opportunities to adopt? That they took healthy animals and didn’t even bother to try to adopt them out? That if the vet employees knew the animals would be killed in their very parking lot they never would have turned them over? I think that’s the case here…PETA employees represented themselves as a way to get animals adopted, and they didn’t even try. [/QUOTE] Y’know, if I had not worked at a shelter for six years and seen folks’ incredible capacity for self-deception on the issue of euthanasia, I’d be more inclined to believe that the vets were acting in good faith. As it is, the fact that they didn’t have a scrap of paperwork regarding their agreement makes me wonder whether they had a “don’t ask, don’t tell” attitude: if they had a formal agreement, they’d have to admit to themselves what they were doing, and they didn’t want that kind of responsibility. And I doubt that Norfolk’s opportunities are that much better. A bigger town also means a lot more sources of stray animals; in general, it’s the bigger municipalities in a region that perform more euthanasias total. I think the PETA employees were assholes, and there may well have been assholes at the higher levels of PETA. But that doesn’t mean I think the vets were innocents in this drama. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Della](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c68b51/32.png) [@Della](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Della)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/49 "2007-02-02T22:36:53Z")
[QUOTE=BluePitbull] Slight hijack, any interest in persuing animal alternatives to testing? I understand the need for medical research but would alternatives be cheaper and more accurate than animal testing? For the record, I am interested in medical research and also researching animal alternatives. [/QUOTE] Sorry about the continued several-days-old hijack… I have a great deal of interest in alternatives to animal research, but I have yet to see any method that would work as well for the research I’m interested in. In particular, the alternatives I’m thinking about here are computer modeling and cell cultures. Neither method would be able to capture the complexities involved in whole-animal biological processes. Computer models aren’t very good at modeling things that we don’t know about, such as interactions between gene expression and environmetal influences. Cell cultures aren’t very useful for learning about whole-organ, let alone whole-animal behavior. However, these methods, in conjunction with traditional whole-animal research, can add extra information that we may not otherwise be able to gather. I should add that the best research model to use for a specific experiment depends heavily upon your specific research question. Someone interested in migratory behavior of birds wouldn’t learn much by using cell cultures. However, if someone was interested in examining the effects of specific amino acids on cell membrane permeability, then using a whole animal would be overkill (if you’ll pardon the pun). Of course, then you need to figure out where and how to get your cell cultures… If you can come up with an alternative model to whole animal research that will provide just as much information without all the drawbacks (like expense, moral issues, and random nutjobs wanting to kill you because of your work) then you will be a very popular person, especially among animal researchers. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/50 "2007-02-03T06:36:09Z")
Well, [the verdict is in](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070203/ap_on_re_us/peta_arrests). > [@](#): > > A jury cleared two animal rights workers of animal cruelty charges Friday for euthanizing cats and dogs they took from shelters, but both were convicted of littering for dumping the carcasses in a trash bin. > > Adria Hinkle and Andrew Cook, two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, were cleared of eight misdemeanor counts of animal cruelty. Hinkle also was found not guilty on three felony counts of obtaining property by false pretenses. > > Both received a 10-day suspended jail sentence and a year of supervised probation. Their van will be confiscated by police and each was ordered to pay $4,000 in fines and restitution. They will also each have to serve 50 hours of community service. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/51 "2007-02-03T13:21:55Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] Well, [the verdict is in](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070203/ap_on_re_us/peta_arrests). [/QUOTE] Interesting–thanks for the link, and just about exactly the results I expected when I first heard about the case a couple years ago. Strangely, petakillsanimals doesn’t have the verdict up yet. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/52 "2007-02-03T16:27:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] It’s of trivial importance, but what’s that mouthpiece thing the court reporter is using? I’ve been wondering about this for some time. [/QUOTE] It’s a [stenomask](http://www.kingdesign.ca/stenomask.htm), used by court reporters trained in that technique for [voice writing](http://www.bls.gov/k12/law03.htm). > [@](#): > > The other method of court reporting is called voice writing. Voice-writing involves a court reporter speaking into a stenomask—a hand-held mask containing a microphone. The reporter repeats the testimony into the recorder. The mask has a silencer so the reporter won’t be heard. Voice writers record everything that is said by persons in the courtroom. Gestures and emotional reactions are also recorded. > > Some voice writers produce a transcript in real time, using computer speech recognition technology. Other voice writers translate their voice files after the event is over. Voice writers can pursue careers as closed captioners or CART reporters for hearing-impaired people. ---
**Author:** ![Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Boulter\_s\_Canary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boulter_s_Canary)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629/53 "2007-03-04T15:20:28Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] That includes budgies? Are you allowed to bring them inside in cold weather? Do you noe have West Nile virus in GB? [/QUOTE] ALL birds. Budgies and canaries included. Most outdoor aviaries have an indoor section or at least boxes the birds can shelter in. No, we don’t have West Nile. Yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-following-the-peta-trial-in-north-carolina/389629.md?page=2)