Anyone In Canada Recognize the Utopia Michael Moore Sees There?

What a load of crap. According to this report about 75% of cataract and joint replacement patients wait less than 3 months. They only break it down between under 1 month, 1-3 months, and over 3 months. I have no data to show it, but I suspect that the number of people waiting 1-2 years is vanishingly small. Certainly not what the average person waits.

I’m not going to look up each of the other “facts” you mentioned, but judging by the accuracy of your first contention I doubt they are anywhere close to the truth.

Besides, as with all other countries, the U.S. spends approximately twice the amount per capita on health care. By spending that much more money the U.S. should be heads and shoulders above the rest of the world. We aren’t because our system of health care is much less efficient than the socialized health care in other Western nations.

OK. But it’s San Jose that is the outlier in large US cities, not Detroit.

I agree that the notion that Canadians don’t have to lock their doors is ludicrous. We don’t need to cite any data to “prove” that.

You’re aware that there are OTHER distinctions that people can draw between Detroit and San Jose/Missoula. Here’s some crap I dug up for ya as well, with gun deaths. No map was handy, but here are some stats from Connecticut.

Yes, I’m aware of that. That’s why I said the problem was complex.

I have no idea what point you’re trying to make with your ‘gun facts’ link. It seems like the typical context-free summary you see on partisan sites everywhere. I certainly wouldn’t be able to draw any conclusions from perusing those stats. Was there a point you wanted to make with it?

It’s just a single data point, but in September of 2002 I noticed a visual field defect in my left eye, and notified my primary care physician immediately. They tried to give me an appointment with an opthalmologist three weeks from then. I knew it was more critical than that, and leaned on them, and they reluctantly gave me an appointment in a week. Five days after the first symptom, my retina peeled off the back of my eye. Despite several surgeries I have never seen anything in that eye again. Retinal tissue is nerve tissue, and it doesn’t grow back.

The retinal specialist I ended seeing said that had I been treated immediately, he could have guaranteed ambulatory vision in that eye, and a pretty good chance of being able to read with it.

This was in New York, and I had the most expensive of the three tiers of medical coverage offered by my employer.

But, in some ways doesn’t the Canadian system stand on the shoulders of the US system? The Canadian system is best at driving the care down to the most amount of people, and provides good care at low cost. The US system is best at being out there on the cutting edge of technology and using new procedures, drugs, and equipment too expensive to use in a not-for-profit system that eventually become commonplace. It was the US demand for diagnostic equipment that drove down the price of CAT, MRI, and PET scanning equipment. Sure, the Brits invented the CAT scanner, but it was the US that bought enough of them to bring the price down enough for everyone to afford them.

I know. I was semi-backing you up about it.

The link was just for information’s sake. There was no point over it at all.

Then again, if you wish to blot it out with your hands by putting quotation marks around it and belittling it, then it doesn’t matter WHAT I post or link to.

Before I left my previous job I traveled to Canada 6-8 times a year for the last 10 years or so. While I was there, I would read the Canadian papers (Globe and Mail or Vancouver Sun typically).
I cannot recall a trip where I did not read of some Canadian or group of Canadians that were having trouble getting adequate health care.
This has led to what I believe they call a two tier system, where wealthy Canadians are either going private doctors/clinics or traveling to the US to get medical care. From what I recall a lot of these clinics were for MRI, and other specialized diagnostic work. The kicker is that this care is paid for cash. So not only are they getting taxed and they are then paying for their own care on top of their taxes. :eek: In addition when I was in Vancouver in Jan /Feb of this year, I recall reading that one of the provinces was trying to outlaw these private clinics. I guess because it isn’t fair to a regular wage earner.
The story that stuck in my mind the most was about a Canadian that had a cardiac event in Orlando Florida. He was admitted to a hospital in Florida diagnosed, stabilized, and scheduled for the procedure that he needed in about 2 days. He was visited by someone from the Canadian consulate who offered to charter a plane to take him home, where he could get health care. He asked when he could expect to get the procedure done if he took them up on their offer. Three to six months was the reply. He elected to stay in the US, and get it done the following day.
The point the article made was that the US has the best health care money can buy.

Well, anecdotal info is always suspect. I think just like Sam’s anecdote about his families medical problems in Canada there are plenty of folks who have no problems at all with the system. Guess what? Just like horror stories in the US, there are plenty of folks who have had no problems. For my part the only problems I’ve ever had with the US system was with experimental procedures that the insurance company didn’t want to have done for my daughter…and at a guess Canadian or European medical systems wouldn’t have paid for them either.

For anything else I’ve had no issues. A few weeks ago my gall bladder went south. I went to the emergency room, they ran a series of tests on me trying to figure out what was wrong, finally giving me an MRI and determining what the problem (probably) was. I saw a surgeon the next day, who sent me to the main hospital for a sonogram (I felt like I was pregnant :wink: ), they did their thing, got back to the surgeon that day…and he scheduled me for surgery the day after.

Though my gall bladder turned out to be incredibly infected and on the verge of bursting (I didn’t even know they did that), the surgeon took it out with no fuss, no muss…end result 4 very small scars and a bit of pain (the worst effect thus far is my inability to eat pizza or spicy foods…nearly a death sentence here in New Mexico :stuck_out_tongue: ).

And this is the 4th major operation I’ve had. No problems with the system here. I’m far from a ‘rich’ person…and I’m probably the wealthiest person in my extended family.

What does this touching anecdotal story mean? Nothing really. It just illustrates that some people have no problems (or few) with the system, while others have major problems with the system. I could give stories from other members of my extended family (who are as poor as you can get in this country) that are equally good…or would make your hair stand on end they are so bad. And at a guess, there are folks in Canada (and Europe) that could do the same…in fact, I KNOW folks in Canada AND in Europe (well, in the UK and France mainly) that have had good experiences with their medical system…and VERY bad ones. As bad as anything even the poorest of my family have had (and some much better than even the best care I’ve gotten…or at least as good).

As I do with other folks tales, take my own stories with the grain of salt they deserve…but also take the hair raising type with the same grain. And remember about that grass and how green it REALLY is on the other side of the fence…

-XT

p.s. Oh yeah…and remember that FF Michael Moore? At a guess HE doesn’t go to either Canada OR Europe (or Cuba either :wink: )to get medical treatment. He just makes a shit load of money off telling us all how much better the system is in those other places…

Just some food (the spoon-fulls of which MM doesn’t seem to be missing any of) for thought. :wink:

-XT

Getting back to the OP, Lindsay McCreith is probably not a Doper, or is perhaps too ill to participate in this thread. So I’ve included this link to his story, as well as some other info about Canada’s health care system:

That’s great , of course…but only if you have the money to buy it.
For every story of great care, there’s a counterbalancing story of terrible care—somebody who died because his employer went bankrupt and he had no insurance coverage.

I have found that instead of asking Americans and non-Americans to compare their heath systems, there is a better way to evaluate the quality of care:

In each country, listen to friends as they talk casually among themselves about their medical issues.

1: In Canada:------
First friend: " I’m gonna have my gall bladder removed, boy am I scared"
Second friend: " good luck with that, hope it goes well. I hope is isn’t too painful, or takes too long"

2: In the USA:----
first friend, “I’m gonna have my gall bladder removed, boy am I scared”.
Second friend: WOW–how much will that cost? Is it covered by your employer?

The entire psychology is different.
Americans expect the best, and then panic when the price drives them close to bankruptcy.
Canadians and Europeans only hope for the best, but don’t even ask what the price is.

I have had the above conversations, in different countries. Everybody worries about being hospitalized. But in my experience, it’s the Americans who have more nightmares than the non-Americans.
Non-Americans worry about the pain of the knife, knowing that it may take a couple months to return to routine again. But Americans worry about the pain of huge debts, NOT knowing if they will ever get back to routine life again.

Testimonials, whether or not filtered through a pre-existing viewpoint, are not a good way to evaluate health care systems.

The best way is through objective measures - i.e. outcomes.

It is unlikely Canada would be a “leader in medical innovation” no matter what system it adopted. The reason is quite simple: Canada’s population is 1/10th that of the US.

Any “innovative” medical product is going to have a market 10 times the size of Canada’s in the US. All things being equal, the US will always be a better place to lanch an innovative product designed to aid a small percentage of the population - because the US will have a larger total number of people eligible to use the product.

Wow, an GD post that contains a bunch of unsupported attacks, an overuse of smilies, and what I can only guess is calling someone “fat” - unless FF stands for “Fantastic Four.”

That was helpful. You brought a lot to the table. Thanks. Please try to avoid including any extra unnecessary smilies in your certainly-to-be pithy response.

-Joe

Unsupported attacks? Are you saying A) MM isn’t fat? B) MM doesn’t use US medical facilities, B1) Instead he uses the medical facilities in Canada/Europe/Cuba in preference, C) That he’s not rich, D) That he hasn’t made this money by a series of ‘documentaries’ telling us all how bad things are?

Are you asking me to CITE this stuff?? Would you like a cite that the sky is blue as well??

As for my ‘overuse of smilies’…well, I’ve never seen the guildlines for how many smilies are allowed per word. Perhaps if you would like to link me the house rules on the SDMB for the prefered number of smilies I will try and follow that guildline in future. Or maybe I won’t unless the Mods start getting snippy about the use of smilies in a post…

:stuck_out_tongue:

Oh, no worries…consider it a public service. :stuck_out_tongue: (thats one) Perhaps next time YOU could try and contribute something? :stuck_out_tongue: (two). I know you have it in you. :wink: (three…and thats the winky smilie…for extra effect…)

-XT

Sorry, I guess I mistook

to mean “unsupported”.

Am I incorrect? I’m sure you have a cite. That would clear this all up.

As for your use of smilies, it’s not that there’s a rule or guideline, it’s that you appear to use them as a way of say, “I’m making a wildly asinine point here, but I’m putting smilies so that means I really shouldn’t be called on it because I apparently don’t mean it enough for anyone to bother questioning it”.

-Joe

I’m kinda in favour of a two-tier system. The socialized care is there for all of the routine medical stuff, paid for out of the taxes of the rich and poor alike; if you have the cash and want faster or more cutting-edge care, you can pay for it, over and above your tax payments. Seems to me to make the best of both worlds.

The way I envision it, there would be little unfairness in this, as those able and willing to pay would be using the socialized system for everything except those procedures they wish to expedite.

The problem with the “best health care money can buy”, of course, is that many simply don’t have the money to buy it. In a modern, first-world nation, it is simply unacceptable in my opinion that a large percentage of the population not have access to medical care for financial reasons. To my mind, socialized medicine is the same sort of ‘natural subject for socialization’ as a socialized police force or a socialized fire department - if you want “extra policing” you can hire a security company; there is in effect a “two-tier” system for security services in both countries. Why not for medicine?

But what has this got to do with private health care in America? America’s obviously going to drive down prices due to high demand simply because it’s a first world country, where good health care is expected, and it has a huge population, compared with other first world nations.

I am no fan of Michael Moore (which is a shame, I used to be a big fan) but I heard him talk about his own health care. According to him he pays dues to three unions (actors, writers, directors) each one has a health care plan. He never claims to have problems with health care. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem with the system.

Well, I was not saying that it would necessarily be worse if you decoupled health insurance from jobs…just that it would not necessarily be better and could be worse…at least without considerable regulation. And, I still think that. There are still lots of issues to be dealt with: (1) Not everyone is healthy when they are young. I told the story of being denied coverage in my mid-20s (and I still consider myself to be generally healthy), which isn’t so far off the time period when people could be switching from their parents’ policy to one of their own. (2) There would still need to be regulations to control the insurance companies from effectively dropping coverage to people as they got older (and certain ones in particular got less healthy) by driving up their rates to unaffordable levels.

I’m not saying it can’t be done but there simply has to be a lot of regulation if one is committed to the idea that everyone is entitled to at least a basic reasonable level of health care because there are people out there that the insurance companies can predict with high probability they are going to lose money on (unless they charge those people rates that the people can’t afford to pay) and a company trying to maximize its profits won’t want to insure these people.