Anyone In Canada Recognize the Utopia Michael Moore Sees There?

Yes and no, Frank

1-If you are touring/visiting any number of European countries with socialized health care systems, should anything happen to you during your stay, you’ll still get almost all your health care needs covered even if you don’t pay a dime in taxes in said nations.

2-I no longer own any property in Sapin, thus I don’t pay a single Euro in taxes there. Yet ‘La Comunidad Madrileña’ (Madrid district) sends me a health card with unlimited health coverage only due to the fact that I was born and inscribed there.

3-Sure, residents pay high taxes, but by the same token, ‘co-pays’ and ‘deductibles’ are almost unheard unheard of – as are rejections for prior existing conditions.

4-Any major illness that would cause many Americans, even with health insurance to go bankrupt, you pay close to zilch in France. Beyond the fact that there is no such thing as a set number of days on ‘sick leave.’ Doctors and doctors alone (along with the patients input of course) determine that. Meanwhile the government will pay 65% of your salary and the company you work for the other 35%.

5-Yes, it’s the idea of the majority taking care of the minority in times of need. Then again, one day it just might be you that is in that minority. Something they obviously think about.

So yes, while Utopia is just that, an inexistent system on earth, I daresay Socialized Medicine is damn closer to it than than the HMO racket that you currently have going in the US.

As my link shows, it’s not for nothing you are ranked 37th world-wide when it comes to health care – one of the very last so-called First World countries countries on that particular score.

Certainly, unless you’re rich as XT, Scylla, Shodan and many other on-board Conservatives, it wouldn’t much matter to you. But that is not the case with even a plurality of Americans.

Try reading this thread by your own countrymen/women to see what I speak of. Or better yet, watch “Sicko.”

In general, am I arguing with you? Certainly, I feel that health care should be socialized. Nevertheless, that socialization comes from taxes, of one sort or another.
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:rolleyes:

Free lunch? Or perhaps the citizens of the country you are visiting are footing the bill FOR you (just as YOU foot the bill for THEM if they happen to get sick where ever you DO pay taxes)? Hm…I wonder…

So, because YOU don’t pay taxes in (I assume you mean) Spain, that means…what? No one in Spain has to pay taxes? Indeed, you Euro’s have invented the free-lunch/perpetual motion machine.

So, now you admit you (or at least someone still working in Europe) actually DOES pay taxes. Well, at least we’ve managed to come to an agreement that your first two points are out the air lock…

Yes, its all about compromise. You DO seem to understand the concept. If you don’t pay high taxes to get ‘free’ health care, then in fact you have to pay things like ‘co-pays’ and ‘deductibles’ instead. If the gubberment can’t decide what conditions to treat or not treat then indeed private insurance companies can and do reject some folks (or make them pay more) for ‘proior existing conditions’.

Whats better? Well, I guess that depends on what you want. Obviously you Euro’s want it the way you have it. Equally obviously you can’t wrap your mind around the fact that us USer’s don’t want that…yet.

However, this would be a good time to bring up another fact that you will probably hand wave away in some fashion or another. That being…as in all things, its all about compromise. There is only so much money to go around…so societies need to make decisions as to what they think are the optimal (or I suppose the most desired) ways to spend that limited budget…and also how they want their society to function. By and large you Europeans have opted for higher levels of social programs (including health care)…the compromise being that in general your economies don’t function as dynamically as ours does. However, there is yet another factor (that I, for one, find ironic)…that being that you have chosen to rely on US to defend you. Most European nations (including your own) have very limited military budgets (again, only so much money to go around…gots to decide whats important). They can do that because the US is carrying the water for the most part militarily. Now, YOU probably think thats a great idea (or you think we should not have a strong military either)…and the point is debatable of course. The point though is that OUR citizens feel that the compromise is a good one…balancing our health care system against things like a dynamic economy and a strong defense.

Which is better? Ask the voters…

Well, even assuming I accept this uncited (I don’t, but lets push on as its not important), again you miss the point. Our citizens obviously are OK with this compromise…while your’s like things the way they are in the old country. C’est la vie…

True enough…but again, its up to the citizens of a nation to decide one how best to use their taxes, and what compromises they are willing and unwilling to make.

I’m glad it works for you, and that you are happy…even considering that indirectly its MY country that subsidizes your happyness. :stuck_out_tongue:

This was not only inaccuate but uncalled for. I’m hardly ‘rich’, being just an average, middle class American…and MY family immigrated here from Mexico, being basically farmers there. I have no idea about either Scylla or Shodan, but unless you want to prove that they are ‘rich’ then I suggest you keep this kind of crap to yourself in future…or take it to the pit if you wish and I’ll tell you all about how I feel about you AND your country (again).

-XT

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Fair enough on both counts.

Okay, let’s stop talkiing in generalities and get down to details. Let’s look at what’s wrong with the U.S. system, and what’s wrong with government health care, and look at where we stand:

What’s wrong with the U.S. system?

There are two fundamental problems as I see it: The first is that there’s a real market failure in the insurance system. Not just health insurance, but all kinds of insurance markets. There’s a fundamental asymmetry of information. The insurer wants to take a fair bet with a profit margin for assuming people’s health risks and spreading out the cost. If an insurance company’s customers were taken from a random sampling of the population, then it could use actuarial methods to determine how much to price the insurance. And you as a customer could be happy knowing that you’re paying the average cost for health care in return for eliminating the risk of major financial catastrophe. In this case, the market would function correctly.

But we have a situation where the insurer is lacking information about your health, while you have lots of information. Given that, if the insurance company charged premiums based on the average risk of an American, what would happen? People with above average risk would seek out the insurance, and people with below-average risk would avoid it. So the insurance company has to build in an additional premium to cover its increased average payout. Which drives the next healthiest marginal patients out of the insurance market, which drives up prices even more for the rest.

Insurance companies work around this problem in a couple of ways: One is that they try to learn more about you by requiring medical exams and histories. The other is that they try to pull random samplings of people as their customers by offering group plans to unions, employers, and other large groups that can be evaluated as a group and a premium assigned accordingly.

That’s why the U.S. system has evolved into large employer and union health plans, along with much more expensive health insurance for individuals, with a large number of people left without any health insurance at all.

This is the problem single-payer health plans like Canada’s try to solve. By mandating health insurance and providing it from one source, you completely eliminate the problem of information asymmetry. Then you don’t have problems with job mobility, individuals without coverage, and ‘managed care’ plans (the entire country is one big managed care plan).

But government health care has major problems. The first is that by removing market prices from health care, it lacks the information needed regarding relative demand of health care goods and services, and therefore has a hard time allocating resources. So you wind up with periodic gluts and shortages. Especially for long lead-time resources like doctors and nurses. But also for bed space, MRI machines, and other essential items.

The next problem is the moral hazard problem. By making health care ‘free’, you remove a critical market component required to limit demand on finite resources. People want more free health care than they do expensive health care. So your costs will skyrocket unless you find another way to control health care. Since you’ve broken the demand side, all you have left is supply. So you control costs by establishing waiting lists, creating schedules of treatments that aren’t available to certain groups of people, etc.

Finally, there’s just the general mismanagement and waste of government. Governments suck at managing finances and running industries. They just do. My wife is a manager in a hospital, and the stories she tells of the bureaucratic tomfoolery that goes on just make my jaw drop. And politics enter into it: hospitals get built in regions that have the most political clout rather than the greatest need. Funds are diverted around according to the polls or latest ‘fad’ scare in the news. There’s no profit incentive, so there’s no incentive to innovate or to take risks.

I wouldn’t trust the government to make quality shoes for me, so why would I trust them to manage my health care system? Do you want a health care system that looks like the DMV or has the successful outcome of the Dept. of Education?

So both systems have problems. What’s the solution? First, we should ask what problem we are trying to solve. What is it you really want? That health care be utterly free for everyone? Or that poor people have access to good care? Or simply that everyone is protected from the risk of a major health incident causing them to go into bankruptcy?

To me, I’m aiming more at the latter. If there’s going to be a government system, I think it might be best for the government to maintain a universal catastrophic health care insurance. Put a high premium on it indexed to a person’s income: For poor people, the deductible might be $1,000. For rich people, it might be $500,000. Where the exact line is, I’m not sure, but it should be priced such that it only covers the real big spikes, not the bulk of everyday health care.

Then let the private market compete for gap coverage. This should lower the price of health insurance dramatically, and the price would also scale with income because the insurance company is on the hook for less of a gap with poor people and can price its coverage accordingly. This also reduces the risk of information asymmetry because the gap coverers are never on the hook for the truly devastating economic shocks, so their risk premium goes way down.

A poor person might get gap coverage for $50/mo. A rich person might have to pay $500/mo. If a person goes uncovered, it might really sting to get sick or be severely injured, but it won’t be a life-ruining event.

Now add in medicaid coverage for poor people. And that’s it. Keep the government out of the management of health care. The bulk of the economic activity remains in the private market. Prices still work. There’s still an incentive to stay healthy and avoid physical risk, and a cost involved for using the system so it doesn’t get over-used for trivial things.

It’s not perfect, but you’re not going to find perfect. An important thing to keep in mind: We can’t afford all the healthcare we want. Period. Health care is a scarce resource. You will never have perfect health care coverage for everyone. So you have to restrict its availability somehow. You can do it with prices, or you can do it by restricting the supply of health care. Or a combination of both. So if you wait for your ‘ideal’ health care system, you’ll be making the perfect the enemy of the good and get no change at all.

I’d prefer even less government involvement than what I proposed above, but I think the writing is on the wall that the government will get involved one way or the other. Better that it get involved in the areas where there are true horror stories, and avoid meddling in the general day to day business of health care.

This statement is not really correct. I know what you mean which is higher levels of social programs paid by the government through taxation. However, none of these nations, as far as I know, pays more for health care than we do, one reason being that they pay much less for a health care bureaucracy that revolves around the transfer of many (from patients and their employers to insurance companies, patients to medical providers, and insurance companies to medical providers).

Again, after correctly lambasting RedFury that implying that universal health care is a free lunch, you are now implying that non-universal health care is a free lunch. There is in fact no evidence whatsoever that we are paying less for health care (and could thus afford more for defense). It may be that we are paying less in taxes for health care but that doesn’t mean we are paying less for health care.

Well, the question is whether the voters in the U.S. have really made an informed choice or one based on ignorance, which is why people like Michael Moore are trying to educate them on the matter. And, I am not claiming that Moore’s portrayal is completely accurate, but I think it is closer to the truth than the horror stories about universal health care that are presented by those who stand to lose a lot by its adoption (namely the insurance companies and, to a lesser extent, doctors through the AMA…although doctors themselves have a range of viewpoints on the matter).

Sam: I agree for the most part with your analysis of the problem. There are, however, a few things that I would add:

(1) I think in addition to the information asymmetry there is the additional issue that (at least most of us) think of health care as fundamentally different than some other things. I.e., I don’t believe that everyone, no matter how poor, is entitled to a car (even though, admittedly, there are some areas where not having one is a severe disadvantage) but I do believe that everyone is entitled to decent health care. This is why, although many of the same issues exist in other parts of the insurance industry as you noted, I don’t think I find it as much of a problem as for health care.

(2) Removing market prices for health care is not a problem seen only in universal health care systems. The same issue exists once someone has a good private health plan in the U.S. (which is part of the reason why there has been an attempt by insurance companies to get into the business of deciding what treatments to allow and what to deny…or at least deny payment for).

(3) You talk about the general mismanagement and waste of government and yet the studies show that we have a much more bloated health care bureaucracy than you. Why? Because when each medical provider has to deal with hundreds of different insurance companies paying for their services, you end up not just with a huge bureaucracy at the insurance companies’ end but also a huge bureaucracy at the doctors’ end. When I lived in Canada, I knew a doctor who told me that in his practice of several doctors, they had one secretary who spent part of her time on billing issues. For similar size practices in the U.S. that he knew of, they had several people who worked full-time on billing issues.

(4) I would have to think more about your proposed solution to decide how it might work. In many ways, it sounds appealing…and certainly sounds like it would be a considerable improvement over what we have now in the U.S.

This is a very interesting post, but I do wonder about these points.

I have read that, as a matter of actual fact, medical costs are higher in the US than in Canada, per capita - and that a large amount of this difference is higher administrative costs, which is exactly the area in which one would expect government inefficiency:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_10_28/ai_108994048

It seems to me to be unsafe to work on the assumption that “private enterprise = effecient” as if it was axiomatic. The facts suggest otherwise (unless of course they are wrong for some reason - it isn’t as if I can verify them).

Are there any studys which show that the US-style private enterprise system is more financially efficient?

I would never consider moving to Canada because of their draconian gun laws.

I’m just surprised at how important this issue is to so many on both sides of it.

I’m a Canadian who has always owned guns, which I’ve used mostly for shooting holes in tin cans.

Malthus and jshore: I don’t dispute that the American system is bloated and inefficient. As I said, there’s a market failure in health care. Therefore, the health care industry has evolved in a very inefficient way. No doubt about it.

That’s why my solution focuses primarily on correcting that market failure, while also ensuring that everyone gets coverage for major health events.

Re XT: The EU letting “the US carry the water for us.” (militarily)

I mentioned this in some other thread when you brought up the same canard. What “water” do we need the US to carry for us? Granted, our combined military budgets aren’t nearly as large as the US’s, but so what? The Cold War is over and most of us don’t beleive the whole War on Terror screed – at least not how Bush wants to present it, as a military conflict, which it simply isn’t. As I said before, as a truly defensive force, the EU has nothing to fear, nor is it a likely candidate for invasion by anyone at present time – and as little as we spend it doesn’t mean that we’re not a credible force to be dealt with. So it makes NO sense to the great majority of our voters to increase our military spending at the cost of lowering our living standards – basic public health, education and housing, although not perfect by any means, are a damn site better overall than what Americans can and do provide their poorer brethren.

As for the whole “ask the voters” stchick, I refer you back to jshore’s response. Besides, I doubt any/many of those working poor, made of about 35 million Americans give a good damn about your powerful armed forces or even bother to vote – too busy trying to put food on their tables.

As for income inequality, take a look at this: Income and social class

– my bolding. Article fully cited at source.

So yeah, you might be all happy and optimistic about the current state of your nation, and you might as well be right. I, OTOH, much prefer the European model (which some of you have been dooming for decades…with no “luck” I might add) and its social net. At the very least it tries (and mostly succeeds) in providing its poorest citizens with a social net that allows them to strive for a better future – if not for them, then for their future generations.

Who is “right”? Well, at least in principle, as a secular humanist, I think I am. As for the future and the viability of either system, we shall see. Or maybe that should be “our children will.” For social change (outside of revolutions, which I am neither fond of nor do I believe in positive outcomes…more like “meet the new boss” type of deal) does not come either easily nor quickly. But again, I do believe the better foundations rest within the EU model.

That is, of course, if you place overall well-being over individual hyper-success. And no, that clearly doesn’t mean there can’t be millionaires, but rather that they should bear the greatest financial burden when it comes to making our societies more egalitarian. Which, of course, I believe they should be. Even Greenspan’s “concerned” about it. Imagine that!

Re: government bureaucracy versus private bureaucracy…

The problem is not that government = inefficient, private enterprise = efficient; the problem is that any large organisation becomes inefficient simply because of the amount of internal communication that must happen in order to coordinate its parts.

I have seen this happen at my workplace as it became larger. And it happens in a very real sense when designing physical objects, everything from cities to chips. The more complex something is, the greater precentage of it is take up by facilities for internal communications (roads and rails and parking lots and stations for cities, wires for chips), assuming that the methods it uses for internal communications do not change.

So the question ceases being “Which is more efficient: a mass of competing private insurers and providers, or an all-covering public insurer and provider?”; it becomes “What is the smallest, and therefore most efficient, organisation that can handle the task?”.

You are assuming that size alone is the determining factor of efficiency. It’s not. There are plenty of highly efficient, very large companies. General Electric, for example.

There’s a fundamental difference between government and private industry. In private industry, there’s always a strong balance between expenses and income. Every time you spend money on something, you have to ask how it will help the company make more. There’s constant pressure to be efficient, to make good decisions, and to meet the needs of customers. In addition, private companies are dependent on customers to survive. They don’t have the power of armed coercion, so they must bend to the demands of the marketplace. Get too bloated, and leaner competitors will take your market share. Make poor business decisions, and you’ll be punished. Built too much infrastructure, and you become vulnerable to hostile takeovers and your fixed costs prevent you from being competitive.

In private industry, to make profit you have to freely trade with people who want what you have. You must give them what they want to get what you want. Every dollar spent cuts into profits, so you only spend money where it makes the most sense.

Thus, private industry exists in the realm of the rational. They succeed and fail in proportion to how well they understand what people need and how good they are at meeting those needs.

Government is different. With the power of taxation, it has no need to be lean and efficient. With the power of coercion, it has no need to provide better services and products - it can simply compel you to use them. The people running the show have no financial stake in making it be the most efficient it possibly can be. The incentives are completely skewed. If a politician can divert X funds to his constituents he can be re-elected, even if those funds would have been much better spent elsewhere.

In private industry, if a division of a company is inefficient and failing, it will either be overhauled or shut down. In government, if a department is failing the general solution is to throw more money at it, because politicians don’t want to admit to failure. So you get ridiculous waste like a Rural Electrification Administration, created to bring electricity to rural parts of the country, but which still exists with a budget larger than ever 50 years after almost all rural areas have electricity.

In government, resources aren’t allocated to where they will do the most good - they are allocated to wherever they will have the biggest political payoff for the most powerful members of the government. Is it just a huge coincidence that the states that senior senators on the various appropriations committees come from receive a disproportionate amount of government discretionary funding?

In the past couple of years, opponents of the Bush Administration have pointed to massive failures of government, and rightly so. FEMA was a joke in New Orleans. The Department of Homeland Security is a huge budget sink that doesn’t seem to do much good as far as I can tell. The education system is a mess despite huge new funds being thrown at it.

This should give pause to those who think the government should be given the reins of the health care system. Of course, supporters of big government always gloss over the failures of the past by claiming that when they get into power it will be done the right way. They’re apparently better and smarter than all the people who came before them. They don’t understand or are unwilling to admit that there are fundamental reasons why government control of industry always, always winds up a mess.

Health care is too important to put in the hands of the likes of George Bush, John McCain, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and the assortment of clowns in Congress. They’ll screw it up. Guaranteed.

These two examples, especially the first may be less illustrations of the way things have to be with government as they are illustrations of the P.J. O’Rourke quotation: “The Republicans are the party that says government doesn’t work and then they get elected and prove it.” FEMA actually worked quite well under Clinton.

As for your comparisons between government and private industry, we have been down this road before but I think what you are comparing is the reality of government to the ideal of private industry. Nobody but perhaps the top managers at most large corporations believes that the ideals of private industry actually translate into reality in a large corporation (and the fact that the top managers believe it may go a long way to explaining some of the problems!) Before I started working in private industry, one of the burning questions I used to ponder is whether dogs are self-aware…i.e., do they understand they are dogs. Once I started working in private industry, the burning question became whether upper level management is self-aware…i.e., do they know how stupid they appear to the rest of us and how dumb their latest re-org or corporate initiative is. (What I have been told by others is that they wouldn’t get to the positions they get to if they were!)

I’m not going to say that this never happens, however I think Sam is overstating it.

When I had a suspicious lump I was in for an ultrasound the same day, and a mamogram 2 days later. The only thing I’ve ever had to wait months for was to see a dermatologist. Granted, I would have liked to talk about my pimples sooner than that, but it wasn’t exactly an emergency, ya know?