# Anyone like Fred Astaire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 3, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632 "2009-06-03T21:40:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/21 "2009-06-04T02:01:28Z")
Well, the Nicholas brothers were more spectacular than either. But damn, Fred had a way with a song. He wasn’t a singer (God knows he wasn’t a singer!); he was a song stylist, like Sinatra, Merman, or Cocker. All four knew how to sell a song. In Ethel Merman’s case she could sell a song to the 27th balcony, across Broadway, and into another theater. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/22 "2009-06-04T03:04:57Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > There’s a strong case to be made that Donen did most of the heavy-lifting. All you need to do is compare the films Donen directed w/o Kelly (_Royal Wedding, 7 Brides for 7 Brothers, The Pajama Game, Charade_, etc.) and the films Kelly directed w/o Donen ( :crickets chirping: ) to see who had the stronger handle on the medium. I think it’s clear that Donen was a major director without Kelly, while Kelly was only so-so without Donen ( **Gigot** , anyone?) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/23 "2009-06-04T03:06:56Z")
My take on this age old question: Fred Astaire always looked and sounded to me like he was about to fall over from hunger; there’s a certain effete weakness to his, um, affect, that it makes me vaguely uncomfortable watching him. A kind of “Auschwitz, The Musical” thing. On the other hand, Gene Kelly had really hot thighs. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/24 "2009-06-04T03:55:14Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I refuse to take sides in any Fred Astaire/Gene Kelly debate. They had very different styles, and both qualify as the “best.” > > And don’t forget . . . Ginger Rogers had to do everything Fred Astaire did . . . but backwards and in heels. Oh I have been waiting for years for this quote to surface. No. She didn’t. Watch the movies. 1. She did not do everything he did. 2. If you watch the ballroom dances, nobody dances backwards longer than anyone else. Calling it dancing backwards is wrong, anyway. 3. Her best dances were NOT in high heels. Not to take anything away from Miss Rogers, she was a great dancer, a very engaging actress, and probably a better singer than Fred although as mentioned he’s more of a stylist. But her dancing isn’t really comparable. If you want to look at an equal, look at Eleanor Powell. She and Fred Astaire were only in one movie together and it has IMO 2 of the 5 greatest Astaire dances ever–the Jukebox dance and the Begin the Beguine boogie at the end. I think she smoked him and she did do it in high heels. Too bad about those ballet sequences though. (The other 3: “fancy Free” from _Top Hat_, the aforementioned _Puttin on the Ritz_, and the one where he dances on the walls and the ceilings. Re: the cane trick, while directors liked to shoot his dances in a single take, obviously they weren’t above using camera tricks. I think there is a moment when the film runs in reverse, and I think this after watching this one many times, but I’m just not sure. There are a couple of cane-levitation tricks in a good hoofer’s repertoire–I used to know a couple–but clearly this is not that kind of trick. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/25 "2009-06-04T04:49:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Either that or he’s doing the song and dance backward and actually _dropping_ the cane. 😃 I think that he did drop it and they reversed the order of those few frames. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/26 "2009-06-04T05:08:25Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Oh I have been waiting for years for this quote to surface. > > No. She didn’t. Watch the movies. > > 1. She did not do everything he did. > 2. If you watch the ballroom dances, nobody dances backwards longer than anyone else. Calling it dancing backwards is wrong, anyway. > 3. Her best dances were NOT in high heels. > > Not to take anything away from Miss Rogers, she was a great dancer, a very engaging actress, and probably a better singer than Fred although as mentioned he’s more of a stylist. But her dancing isn’t really comparable. > > If you want to look at an equal, look at Eleanor Powell. She and Fred Astaire were only in one movie together and it has IMO 2 of the 5 greatest Astaire dances ever–the Jukebox dance and the Begin the Beguine boogie at the end. I think she smoked him and she did do it in high heels. Too bad about those ballet sequences though. > > (The other 3: “fancy Free” from _Top Hat_, the aforementioned _Puttin on the Ritz_, and the one where he dances on the walls and the ceilings. My favorite number of his involves more singing than dancing - ‘Never Gonna Dance’ from “Swing Time”. Beautiful and heartbreaking. And the beautiful part for me is that, if you have watched the whole movie, the number is more poignant than if you watch it by itself. Now as to the cane trick, [this](http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/15/movies/review-dance-film-clips-to-celebrate-irving-berlin-s-birthday.html) NYTimes article refers to “camera tricks”, which lends credence to the idea of interpolating reverse film, but it sure is hard to spot the joins if that’s what they’re doing. If I read Astaire’s book it was 30 years ago, so I don’t remember, but doesn’t he discuss how this trick was done in there? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/27 "2009-06-04T12:27:29Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Oh I have been waiting for years for this quote to surface. > > No. She didn’t. Watch the movies. > > 1. She did not do everything he did. > 2. If you watch the ballroom dances, nobody dances backwards longer than anyone else. Calling it dancing backwards is wrong, anyway. > 3. Her best dances were NOT in high heels. Note, too, that Fred was guiding her every step of the way. Her solo dancing wasn’t backwards. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/28 "2009-06-04T12:49:44Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > … the one where he dances on the walls and the ceilings. > .. It’s from _Royal Wedding,_ and I think it’s too gimmicky to be great. I’d sub in the one with firecrackers from _Holiday Inn._ ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/29 "2009-06-04T13:52:00Z")
My favorite is “Pick Yourself Up” from _Swing Time_. She’s a dance instructor about to get fired, and he pretends to be a student to impress her boss. What a marvelous teacher she is! \*Look \*how he’s improved! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![C.Montgomery\_Burns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecd19e/32.png) [@C.Montgomery\_Burns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C.Montgomery_Burns)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/30 "2009-06-04T23:41:16Z")
My favorite routine was Fred Astaire and Eleanor Powell’s “Begin the Beguine”. The way they both challenge each other and make it look completely effortless is astounding! In fact, Powell might have been better than Astaire. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/31 "2009-06-05T00:17:41Z")
What is most amazing about some of these routines is that so many of them were filmed in one continuous take. Eleanor Powell’s dancing in the “Ship Ahoy” clip is so involved I shudder to think how many times they had to film it before they got it all right. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/32 "2009-06-05T02:51:15Z")
The cane trick is quite simple, but it’s not a “camera trick” and couldn’t possibly have been done by reversing the film: both instances occur in the middle of fairly lengthy shots with no sign of a cut. Most of the early part of the routine is a long continuous shot, but at about 2:50, just before the first cane leap, there’s a cut. The leaping cane is not the same one Astaire is dancing with at the beginning of that shot. He kicks that one aside and if you look closely you can see it goes off to the left side of the screen, nowhere near where we’ll see the leaping cane resting a second or two later. The camera pulls back to reveal the preset leaping cane, and at 2:59, it jumps up into Fred’s hand. If you watch in high quality, full screen, you can see what’s happening. Look very closely and you can see a small vertical rod pop up out of the floor about a foot, propelling the cane up. It could be a spring mechanism or an electrically operated solenoid-type device. The second instance is similar. Fred sets the cane on the floor, dances off to the right, and the camera follows him, so that the cane is out of frame for a few seconds. When it pans back, it jumps up. Look closely at its position before and after the pan to the right, and you can see that it was not exactly in line with the pattern on the floor before, but it is after. So during the couple of seconds it was off camera, a stagehand set it up on another pusher mechanism. Very simple. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/33 "2009-06-06T17:24:55Z")
Another one here who as a kid was brought up with watching Astaires films on a Sunday afternoon(though my parents were there as well ). Theres a story about his first Hollywood audition(and these are not the exact words but an approximation)Cant sing can’t act, can dance a little. I for one loved his movies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/34 "2009-06-06T18:12:51Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I refuse to take sides in any Fred Astaire/Gene Kelly debate. They had very different styles, and both qualify as the “best.” > > And don’t forget . . . Ginger Rogers had to do everything Fred Astaire did . . . but backwards and in heels. I’m hardly a dancing expert, but Rogers never did anything for me. Eleanor Powell and Cyd Cherise actually made me take my eyes off Astaire. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/35 "2009-06-06T19:03:02Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I’m hardly a dancing expert, but Rogers never did anything for me. Eleanor Powell and Cyd Cherise actually made me take my eyes off Astaire. I totally agree. And many people would say we’re supposed to be looking at the lady anyway (like in ballet), though some of us are more likely to look at the guy. I only mentioned the Rogers quote as humor, not as truth. And even if it had been true, it was kinda bitchy of her to say it. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2009, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/36 "2009-06-06T23:11:08Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > On the contrary, Astaire’s vocal range may have been limited, but his stylings were impeccable and vastly underrated. Of all the Jazz Age singers that Irving Berlin wrote for, Astaire was his favorite to interpret his songbook. He never got too maudlin in the ballads, but he could also handle fast-paced lyrics with verve. His voice was only good for movies, rather than concert halls, but he wasn’t a bad singer at all. Strangely enough, Astaire used to be brought in by Leo Reisman, a very classy bandleader, to sing on record dates in the early '30s. Not only would Fred sing tunes from his latest shows, but tunes from other shows – and sometimes tunes that weren’t from _any_ show. But the music of that era no longer has an audience, and the movies still do. And in the movies Fred was at his best when dancing. So now we think of him as first and foremost a dancer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/37 "2009-06-07T00:45:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I totally agree. And many people would say we’re supposed to be looking at the lady anyway (like in ballet), though some of us are more likely to look at the guy. > > I only mentioned the Rogers quote as humor, not as truth. And even if it had been true, it was kinda bitchy of her to say it. I like Rogers best when she was dancing, which she was quite good at. But she wasn’t much of an actor and any interview I ever saw with her made her come off as graceless, arrogant and stuck up. I enjoy watching a dancing couple when they both are as mesmerizing as Astaire was with Powell and Cherise. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/38 "2009-06-07T00:58:37Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I only mentioned the Rogers quote as humor, not as truth. And even if it had been true, it was kinda bitchy of her to say it. Whle the “high heels” comment is overly glib and reductive, let’s be fair: Rogers is not the one credited to have originated it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/39 "2009-06-07T01:28:31Z")
We have both _Top Hat_ (1935) and _Swing Time_ (1936) on DVD and love them both. The wife is possibly the only Thai who knows of Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. The “backwards and in high heels” quote seems to have originated in [this Frank and Ernest cartoon](http://www.reelclassics.com/Actresses/Ginger/ginger-article2.htm) in 1982. Both Ginger Rogers and the late Texas Governor Ann Richards have both been mistakenly credited with saying it first. There’s even been a [Backwards in High Heels: The Ginger Musical](http://www.thegingermusical.com/) show. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632/40 "2009-06-07T02:06:02Z")
One of my favorites is the shoemaker dance in The Barclays of Broadway (not sure I have the title exactly right). It’s very difficult to make it look like the shoes are dancing and the dancer is just getting carried along, and Fred nails it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-like-fred-astaire/498632.md?page=3)