# Anyone notice how cooperative everyone is to the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885 "2003-05-03T18:29:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/21 "2003-05-03T23:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic \* > \*\*You forgot that North Korea aquiesed to multilateral talks. Before the war, they were only willing to have bilateral talks. \*\* The US insisted on including South Korea and Japan in any talks, but as soon as North Korea started reprocessing spent fuel rods, Bush acquiesced to talks that included only the US, China and North Korea. Hardly “multilateral”. Any way you look at it, the [“pygmy”](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-03-17-anti-diplomacy-usat_x.htm) is reeming Bush up the ass, and he doesn’t know what to do about it, short of blowing the whole world to kingdom come. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/22 "2003-05-03T23:28:08Z")
Oh please. This has nothing to do with the comment at hand. I write a two paragraph post, and you can’t comment except on one silly point. Canada isn’t going to invade us either. Get over it already. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/23 "2003-05-03T23:29:35Z")
I don’t know if you realize how much opinion about America has dropped in the world. It really is a pity if more of my countrymen spend more of their time logged in the SDMB instead of listening that clown you have for president… ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/24 "2003-05-03T23:55:19Z")
Just in case it need clarification my last post was directed to Conflict of Interest. Estilicon, I think you’d be surprised about how many Americans realize Bush looks like a like a “clown” (I prefer cowboy), to the international audience. Give us some credit. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/25 "2003-05-04T00:07:17Z")
> [@](#): > > How many terrorist attacks happened on his watch after he decided enough was enough? And how many terrorist attacks happened against the US before the “warmongering, fanatical” president decided to ruffle thier feathers? Well now, let’s see… [ul][li] American journalist [Daniel Pearl](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/02/21/pearl.obit/) was kidnapped and decapitated in January, 2002.[/li] [li] [Two Israelis were killed](http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/04/la.airport.shooting/) by an Egyptian immigrant at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport on July 5, 2002.[/li] [li] [An American soldier](http://travel.state.gov/philippines_announce.html) was killed in a bombing in the Philippines in October, 2002.[/li] [li] [Three U.S. aid workers](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2614091.stm) were killed in Yemen in December, 2002.[/li] [li] [A Filipino American businessman](http://www.kemperinsurance.com/busi/spec/spec_crime_phil.html) and his aide were kidnapped on Mindoro in the Philippines in December, 2002.[/li] [li] [An American contractor](http://www.aerotechnews.com/starc/2003/012103/american_killed.html) was killed in Kuwait on January 21.[/li] [li] [An American was killed](http://www.kemperinsurance.com/busi/spec/spec_crime_phil.html) in a bombing at Davao City Airport in the Philippines on March 4.[/li] [li] [Three oil workers](http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/886808.asp), including an American and a Canadian, were killed on an oil rig in Yemen on March 18.[/ul][/li] That, of course, is not by any means a comprehensive list. You may also be interested in the State Department’s _[Patterns of Global Terrorism 2002](http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2002/html/19977.htm)_, in which Secretary Powell states, > [@](#): > > Despite solid progress, the danger persists. > > Al-Qaida is still planning attacks. Every al-Qaida operations officer captured so far was involved in some stage of preparation for a terrorist attack at the time of capture. Recent audiotapes by al-Qaida leaders contain exhortations to further violence and threaten the United States and our Coalition allies. > > These threats must be regarded with utmost seriousness. Additional attacks are likely. > > I have focused on our many accomplishments—diplomatic, intelligence, law enforcement, financial, and military. As significant as those have been, however, it is important not to think that victory is on the horizon. Far from it. Indeed, the ultimate success of this campaign will hinge in large part on two factors—sustained international political will and effective capacity building. Yep, it’s a great, safe time to be an American, all right. I doubt **Spite** is going to put on a Stars and Stripes tee shirt and take a bike tour from Morocco to Indonesia any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/26 "2003-05-04T00:33:16Z")
Well now, **Sofa** , if my son walks by some kids smoking pot and smells the reefer as he passed, make me a failure to keep him off of drugs? I never said they had stopped, and to presume I did is preposterous. How many WTC, Cole’s or Kenya’s have happened? And by sayiong that I am not saying they will not happen on his watch, but for the fact that our president has either caught those responsible or dramatically decreased their abilites to do so shows a demonstrable effect of his current path. And your hand wringing and vitrio does not change that. And while I may not be foolish enough to do such, I would not be cowardly enough to claim I was Canadian or hate Bush as some have proferred on these boards. **light strand** No one I have ever debated with, except those deemed as uninformed, ever claimed that Saddam was weapons free. The whole world admitted it, barring Saddam himself. > [@](#): > > …you would find this not against Americans? If Bush got 99% of the vote and did the same things Saddam has done to his own people, fuckin A. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/27 "2003-05-04T00:39:48Z")
It appears that the neo-con view advocating a strong assertion of American dominance in the world is in the ascendant. I fear this is ultimately short-sighted. We seem determined, after fifty years of nuclear threat, to enforce a world order where we cannot be threatened. This is a chimera. The nuclear genie is fifty years old, the technology is commonplace, any country that can afford a couple of graduate students studying abroad can build Da Bomb. If Pakistan can do, so can Gabon. One way or the other, the era of war is ending. We will have peace, even if it is peace of a blasted lunar landscape. It is not possible to premptively remove every threat. If we spend our treasure and our children in pursuit of this fantasy, we will be the premier collossal idiots of all time. Worse still is the wasted opportunity, the chance to finally live up to the revolutionary dream of our birth, to _lead_, truly lead, rather than vainly seeking to horde our power. Is the UN a vain and feeble enterprise? Of course, institutions born out of optimism frequently are. But then, what was ever so feeble and vain as 13 former colonies boastfully declaring a nation of free men, who own no sovereign? At the time, it was ridiculous, absurd, impractical. And remained so for many years. What would be the best thing that could happen right now? For America to demand something, anything, and meet cooperative international resistance, and then, to _back down!_. Show that we put the concerns of the world above our own, and they will look upon us as leaders, not bullies. _Primus inter partes_, first amongst equals, is a far better motto than _oderint dum metuant_. (Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.) In the entire history of mankind, no group of people has ever had as much power to free humanity, or doom humanity, as we. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/28 "2003-05-04T00:48:22Z")
Spite, it sure didn’t take you long to accuse those of us who don’t support the war of being Anti-American. What do you think of Bali, or the Kenya airline missile attack? I suppose since numerous Americans weren’t killed, then these weren’t _real_ terrorist attacks. For those of us who are “uninformed” exactly where _are_ those tons of WMD that were directly threatening my safety in the DFW metro area? In fact, the treat was so imminent that I haven’t seen my Marine husband since February. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/29 "2003-05-04T01:02:18Z")
Speedy and safe return, **Light**. Had my way, he never would have left. Thats my idea of supporting our troops. I only wish it were more popular. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/30 "2003-05-04T01:03:28Z")
Funny elucidator, I’ve been thinking about that Caligula quote since I opened this thread. It might be worthy to note that Caligula’s own army assassinated him, and the Romans rejoiced. ---
**Author:** ![Spite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@Spite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spite)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/31 "2003-05-04T01:10:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > **Spite, it sure didn’t take you long to accuse those of us who don’t support the war of being Anti-American.** 😕 I have no reserves about calling those that I deem anti-American as such. But where did I say what you said I said? \*\* > [@](#): > > What do you think of Bali, or the Kenya airline missile attack? I suppose since numerous Americans weren’t killed, then these weren’t _real_ terrorist attacks.\*\* Puh-lease, my grandmother invented the guilt trip,hyperbole, rhetorical, strawman. You will have to do better than that. Bali and Kenya airlines are not under the perview of the POTUS, now are they? And as pro Israel I am, I sure as hell would not like it if the US decides to invade the OT’s to take out suicide bombers. > [@](#): > > \*\* > For those of us who are “uninformed” exactly where _are_ those tons of WMD that were directly threatening my safety in the DFW metro area? In fact, the treat was so imminent that I haven’t seen my Marine husband since February. \*\* The million dollar question. Where were you asserting, along with Iraq, that they did not have WMD before march to rest of the world? There were several threads on these boards at the time trying to get those like you to admit such. I think the main gist of them was to say that if you do not think they have WMD you should be oposed to the war _and_ sanctions, along with all of the resolutions against Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/32 "2003-05-04T01:38:51Z")
Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! I didn’t know, didn’t _say_ I knew, had to guess, I’d have said he probably did. GeeDubya said he _knew_. Not suspected, not guessed, _knew_. And not only that Saddam bin Laden had these things, but that he was a direct and immediate threat to us as a result. The right has consistently insisted that if it can lower the bar down to whether or not he possessed things we’d rather he didn’t, then it can justify this military adventure. Utter rot. And now it appears that even _that_ flimsy excuse is so much crappucino, that an Evil Old Bugger like Saddam is telling the truth and _we_ are the belligerant, hair-trigger cowboys! How perfectly disgusting: the monster speaks the truth, and we lie. If he had dared to use such on us, Baghdad would have been a smoking, glowing hole in the Godforsaken Desert inside of an hour. And the entire world knew that. All we have proven is that the mightiest military force _ever_ isn’t enough to make us feel secure. Which is just plain chickenshit in my book. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/33 "2003-05-04T02:03:13Z")
Thanks elucidator. Fortunately although he was activated, he wasn’t deployed. He’s been lingering in CA for the last several months. He was deployed during the first Gulf war in the reign of George I, so this wasn’t terribly unexpected. But I digress for my “I hate America!” stance. America sucks! Screw the Troops! Die Die Die! Now Spite, exactly how was a US military ship in the port of Aden, Yemen or the Embassy in Kenya under Clinton’s control any more than a night club in Bali is under Bush’s, or a Marine Corps barracks in Lebanon under Reagan’s. It seems to me that when you made this claim: " I would not be cowardly enough to claim I was Canadian or hate Bush as some have proferred on these boards" you were pretty much saying that we were un-American enough to claim Canadian citizenship (how you could ferret out the truth of this statement is beyond me). As for my having to back up the claim of WMD, where the hell did that enter the argument? If a president sends our men off to war under a premise of WMD it better be true! The “well it all worked out OK” reasoning is bullshit. What if it hadn’t? Do you suppose the folks who got loved ones back in body bags thought it went well? This thread [shows](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=172230) my incredible telekinetic powers. Read it and weep. ---
**Author:** ![Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conflict_of_Interest)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/34 "2003-05-04T02:05:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > \*\*Just in case it need clarification my last post was directed to Conflict of Interest. > > Estilicon, I think you’d be surprised about how many Americans realize Bush looks like a like a “clown” (I prefer cowboy), to the international audience. Give us some credit. \*\* Just because you think so doesn’t mean many do. Please cite your satistical sourse or stop the liberal rhetoric. And elucidator, all I was doing was responding the the uniformed opinion given by light strand. So chill. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/35 "2003-05-04T02:11:37Z")
**Conflict** , my post was not directed to you specificly, or even with you in mind. Chill yourself. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/36 "2003-05-04T02:21:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > \*\*Just in case it need clarification my last post was directed to Conflict of Interest. > > Estilicon, I think you’d be surprised about how many Americans realize Bush looks like a like a “clown” (I prefer cowboy), to the international audience. Give us some credit. \*\* Have you looked at the polls lately? I think GWB’s approval rating is somewhere around 75%. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/37 "2003-05-04T02:22:39Z")
What huh? Conflict I have so many opinions that are uniformed, that you’re just going to have to clarify it. What would you like a statistical analysis on? Bush is a witch? I can’t prove it, but I suspect it. That Canada is going to attack us? Just look at the smirking, all gay marrying and high, they’re up to something in Great White North. That Bush didn’t get a plurality? Start a thread on it, it’s irreverent to the post. That many Americans think Bush acts like a cowboy? Well, let’s see, there’s me, then my there’s my dogs, and my Sister-in-law, and elucidator. Shall I go on? By the way. Check out sailor’s post for [voiceover]The rest of the story[/voiceover] ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/38 "2003-05-04T02:25:35Z")
MLS are you suggesting that even those who approve of the way he’s handling thing are completely unaware of his international persona? I have trouble believing that Americans are that stupid. I just think they either approve of the cowboy act, or they don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conflict_of_Interest)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/39 "2003-05-04T02:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by light strand \* > \*\*MLS are you suggesting that even those who approve of the way he’s handling thing are completely unaware of his international persona? > > I have trouble believing that Americans are that stupid. I just think they either approve of the cowboy act, or they don’t care. \*\* Or maybe they just aren’t as informed (Prejudiced?) as you are. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885/40 "2003-05-04T02:43:08Z")
I have not conducted a personal survey and can’t pretend to see into anyone else’s mind, but: I think a fairly large number of Americans (a) don’t think it’s a “cowboy” act, or a “clown” act and/or (b) are caring less and less whether people in certain countries think like us or not and/or © are pleased to have someone who says what he means and means what he says – even if he’s not as articulate by far as some of us would like him to be. When he stood by the WTC rubble and said to the police & firemen & construction workers, “I hear you! And the people who knocked these buildings down will hear from all of us real soon!” a large number of us felt very good about that. Some of us took that attack REAL personal, and will support whatever it takes to kick the sh!t out of anybody who thinks about helping anyone to do anything like that again. Do I wish he had the oratorical gifts of Winston Churchill? You bet I do. Did I vote for him? No. Am I glad he won the election? You bet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-notice-how-cooperative-everyone-is-to-the-us/172885.md?page=3)