anyone seen Blackfish? Orca documentary

I went in very skeptical but turned out to be bothered very much by description of the initial “catch” of these whales- when the youngsters were separated from their mothers. Even the guy on the crew broke down when he realized what they were doing and good for Washington to tell them to get out.

And also, the immediate response to the 2010 death by Sea World- how very much they tried to minimize the fact that the whale grabbed and, as the emergency call stated, basically ate the trainer. “Accidental” drowning is a stretch. Count me in as someone who realizes that the trainer knew that could happen but…what a waste…

I can see what is at stake for Seaworld but it now does seem obvious to me that breeding Orcas is not defensible. I think I always thought of Orcas being endangered (turns out they are not) and Seaworld was just doing it’s good thing to keep them around. I don’t know if that ever was true, but without a release program in place, I don’t see the point of continuing to breed them.

You can’t reverse where the current whales are now and I think it’s foolish to push for freedom for the current whales but you can say enough is enough. Do your best to keep the currently captive whales as comfortable as possible. Euthanize the whales that are acting out (especially if the alternative is isolation) and stop or greatly modify the shows to focus on observation and conservation- not a circus act. It is just like the Siegfried & Roy show incident- wild animals are not predictable. I once spent an afternoon with a tiger trainer and several of his big cats, including a 3 month cub that we were able to interact with. It was chilling, the wildness of that baby tiger that was already as big as a pitbull and more than willing to play “stalk” you. Wild animals shouldn’t be parts of shows like that - and I say that as a supporter of animal welfare but not rights, pro-hunting, pro-fishing, rodeo, etc.

I just watched it — fascinating.

I looked up a lot of the details while watching. It was like reading about the chimpanzees that were grown as pets, and the ones who attacked their owners or neighbors after they grew up. It really drilled into me the definition of the word domesticated, and I’m looking at my dog in a new way.

Do you suppose if a family of orcas is kept for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, that it’s possible a descendant many many generations later could become domesticated? That’s a somewhat rhetorical question, just some food for thought, and I don’t want to derail this thread.

Fascinating documentary.

It’s on Netflix and we are watching the 2nd half tomorrow. Just a bump…

I saw it a couple of weeks ago and I was truly skeptical however it was definitely worth the watch.

The footage of the orca going aggro on their trainers is extremely hard to watch. And of course the original capture scenes from way back when are heart-rending.

I have a soft spot for Tillikum. I saw him many times at Sealand as a kid and remember all too well when Keltie was killed. He should have been euthanized. It’s no fair to keep him locked up in a small pool for the rest of his miserable life.

I “liked” the movie on facebook and have been interested to see a whole string of musicians have either cancelled plans to play at SeaWorld or have asked them to stop using their music at the shows.

hopefully this is a turning point and at the very least they will not be able to capture more baby Orcas. they shouldn’t be allowed to breed new ones, either.

sounds like the trainers who worked with him also feel that way. :frowning:

thanks to their publicity, I think most of us assumed they were doing good - any many still believe this.

the only point is continued circus shows to make money.

When I was sent to Florida for a business trip I spent an afternoon at Sea World. It was interesting and fascinating, and while I wasn’t able to get in for an orca show I was able to view the animals.

They’re freakin’ multi-ton predators. I don’t care how many blow up Shamu toys and plush animals they sell, they’re huge, they have lots of teeth, and in their natural environment they hunt for a living. An orca is an animal big enough to hurt you simply by accident, and if you piss one off it can easily kill you. I didn’t need this explained to me, it seemed pretty obvious.

The spouse and I watched Blackfish last night. Dawn Brancheau grew up in the area I currently live in, so we heard a lot about her death at the time.

I think I get a little peeved at the constant excusing that “the animal thought the human was a plaything” or “the animal doesn’t know people can’t hold their breath as long as whales” and so on. Orcas don’t have human intelligent but they are smart creatures. They also have very little to do all day other than observe the humans that hold them captive, provide food, and insist on interacting with them. I think the adult orcas are very aware of how long a human can stay under, or at least how long a human would normally stay under. I don’t think orcas “mistake” a live human for an inanimate plaything. I do think that orcas are capable of anger and frustration. I think something pissed off Tillikum and he took it out on Branchaeu. Her injuries weren’t a mistake, no more than an angry dog biting down on something and shaking it is a “mistake”. That doesn’t make it Brancheau’s fault - he might have already been annoyed by something else, or maybe it was something she did but it might have been unintentional. Fact is, if you work with big animals you risk getting hurt or killed. That’s true even of domestic animals like horses, it’s even more true of something wild.

The incident with Dukes: oh, right, he fell in and died of hypothermia… maybe. Or maybe Tillikum was alone in his pool when a human he didn’t know jumped in, maybe tried to touch him, and almost certainly acted in ways other than he was accustomed to humans acting in his pool. Is it inconceivable he might have attacked the intruder? It might seem odd to think of a six ton orca as threatened, but it’s not like Tillikum is able to flee from either danger or annoyance. Dukes basically jumped into a pen with a large, wild animal. If he had done that at the chimp enclosure at the zoo and gotten killed no one would have claimed the chimps were using him as a “toy”, ditto polar bears, regular bears, tigers, lions, leopards, wolves… I think Tillikum killed an intruder. I don’t blame Tillikum at all for that, it’s a perfectly normal reaction as far as I can see. Some one I don’t know busts into my bedroom at night I doubt I’m going to ask the intruder sit down for tea and cookies, I am liable to react pretty aggressively myself. It’s a damn shame a man who probably had no malicious intent died but hey, real life isn’t like Spock jumping into the whale tank in The Voyage Home.

It’s pretty clear that the pools they keep those orcas in aren’t big enough for the females, much less Tillikum. All you have to do is compare the size of the pool to the size of the animal. It’s like keeping a human in a small, bare jail cell.

It’s also a problem that the orcas can’t get away from each other. In the wild if two of them are in conflict they can physically separate themselves, but not in Sea World. This isn’t in any way natural, it can’t be healthy, and it’s lead to the death of orcas when attacked by other orcas.

Do the trainers and orcas have a “relationship”? Yeah, they do. There is clearly some crude communication between them. I have no doubt the trainers care deeply about these animals. I don’t think the orcas have any inherent animosity towards the humans - if they did no one could get in the water with them at all - and the orcas can probably distinguish their trainers from other humans, and might be able to tell the humans apart as individuals (personally, I think it’s extremely likely they do, but it’s not the easiest thing to prove).

25 or 30 years ago we didn’t know as much about these animals as we do today, we no longer have a good excuse. We can’t release Tillikum - he’s never learned to fend for himself, and he doesn’t know how to interact with normal, wild orcas. There was an effort to release Keiko, the orca featured in Free Willy, back into the wild which wasn’t terribly successful. Oh, he was eventually released but wound up in a fjord in Norway seeking human contact. If we tried the same for Tillkum we’d be putting humans at risk again with close human contact with him, and by all accounts Keiko was a lot more docile, not sure how well that would turn out with an orca with some history of aggression.

I think Tillikum is an extremely frustrated animal, frustrated physically by too little space, frustrated socially by the unnatural conditions he is kept in, and probably also sexually frustrated at least some of the time. The wonder is that he doesn’t lash out more often.

I don’t want to see any more captive orca breeding. I want to see captive orcas kept in larger pools. It would be grand if we could release them into the wild but I’m not sure that’s practical or feasible at this point.

I saw Blackfish twice in the theaters. It was sad and enlightening. I cringed throughout, but especially when it was told how Tilikum was bullied and injured by the other Orcas. The “raking” wounds shown were horrific.

After Blackfish played at Sundance but before it was released to theaters, SeaWorld sent a letter to film critics trying to do some damage control in advance. Kenneth Brower, who wrote a book about Keiko (“Willy”) points out SeaWorld’s lies in an article for National Geographic.

It’s not comprehensive or detailed, but it’s worth a read.

I wish I had the means to visit SeaWorld just so I could boycott them and not go by choice.
This caught my eye this morning:

SeaWorld Tried To Sway A Poll About ‘Blackfish,’ The Documentary It Doesn’t Want You To See

Unsurprising. (Thanks for posting that.)

SeaWorld is owned by Blackstone Group–a particularly sharkish (!) private equity corporation. The people who work for Blackstone, one would guess, would happily turn their theme parks into torture-shows, flaying animals of all kinds daily, if it would turn a buck.

Profit is the thing–and it’s the only thing.

Many individuals who work for SeaWorld probably do sincerely care about the welfare of the orcas and other creatures kept there. I like to keep that in mind when nasty conduct is attributed to “SeaWorld.”

Apologies for the resurrection, but I am seeing recent commercials by Sea World defending the captivity, and I just saw this piece by Jane Goodall which never occurred to me.

http://newsmaine.net/23225-jane-goodall-calls-seaworld-acoustical-hell-animals

Orcas have gone past me when I was sea kayaking in Prince William sound, and I have seen them with my kids at Sea World. I never thought about their sonar in captivity.