# Anyone seriously considering leaving the U.S. if McCain wins? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620 "2008-09-08T15:49:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lili\_Von\_Shtupp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a587f6/32.png) [@Lili\_Von\_Shtupp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lili_Von_Shtupp)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/101 "2008-09-09T18:15:09Z")
Would I leave the country if Obama loses? Absolutely not. While I don’t care for McCain, he’s certainly better than President Boob. I love it here. However, In the event that Obama does lose, you’ll probably find me sobbing and lying in a pool of tears and tequila, praying that the zombie invasion finally happens and that these paticular zombies has a taste for republican meat. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/102 "2008-09-09T18:30:59Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > But working class whites have nothing to fear from a candidate who associates with a Weather Underground radical who bombed the Pentagon and says he wishes he’d planted a lot more, attended a church headed by an Afro-Nazi for twenty years, and described us as clinging bitterly to our guns and religion. Yeah, that really makes me feel like I can trust the man. Amazingly you’re spouting ignorant talking points instead of admitting what bullshit the repubs are slinging. Pointing at another guy and yelling _“he’s even worse!”_ isn’t a defense for detestable acts. > [@Obama](#): > > At a Democratic debate this year when the association between Obama and Ayers was raised, Obama said: “This is a guy who lives in my neighborhood. . . . He’s not somebody who I exchange ideas from on a regular basis.” [Obama called Ayers’ past radical acts detestable.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-obama-filesaug27,0,2234082.story)The guy is a mover in Obama’s town. Of course they move in the same circles. For fuck’s sake, McCain was one of the Keating 5. Sometimes people you casually know have done shitty things in the past. Welcome to Earth. And could you please cite the Afro-Nazi portion of the service? If you actually listen to those speeches they aren’t as bad as people make them out to be. They’re fiery, but that’s because religion fosters emotional silliness. :dubious: If you want to form your opinions based on bullshit talking points that’s your right, but you really shouldn’t go about trumpeting them until you know they’re sound. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/103 "2008-09-09T18:32:00Z")
> [@Lili\_Von\_Shtupp](#): > > praying that the zombie invasion finally happens and that these paticular zombies has a taste for republican meat. 😉 Unlikely. Zombies crave _brains_. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/104 "2008-09-09T19:02:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’ll miss them. If we get a president Palin, say because McCain’s diapers don’t get changed for a couple of days and he goes septic, and that president Palin gets to place two similarly moronic SCOTUS justices, this country could quickly become a festering hellhole. > > Consider, if the ignorant weenies currently pulling the Republican party around by the naughty-hairs get what they want the kind of country they will build: > > No abortion. > No birth control that prevents implantation. > No birth control at all if the pharmacist feels wiggy about it. > No sex education at all in school. > No barrier to teaching creationism directly next to evolution. > Ten commandments on every wall in every courthouse. > Government money channeled to religious schools, and general church programs. > No protection for gays, not only can’t they marry, they just might go back to being arrested. So, even though none of these things happened when Republicans had control of all three branches of government, you are afraid that they will happen ten minutes after the inauguration of a President retaining control of one branch of government. > [@](#): > > And whether it’s realistic or not, the fear that the American experiment will end drowning in Christian ignorance and dogma is very real. It isn’t realistic - that’s the point. People who run away in panic because of ridiculous fears aren’t needed in America. Chicken Little is not an American citizen. Neither is the fox who couldn’t reach the grapes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/105 "2008-09-09T19:11:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So, even though none of these things happened when Republicans had control of all three branches of government, you are afraid that they will happen ten minutes after the inauguration of a President retaining control of one branch of government. > It isn’t realistic - that’s the point. People who run away in panic because of ridiculous fears aren’t needed in America. > > Chicken Little is not an American citizen. Neither is the fox who couldn’t reach the grapes. > > Regards, > Shodan Are the grapes an entitlement program? Anywho, the trouble is we’re due for two supreme court justices over the next four… certainly the next eight. It is truly in the realm of possibility that McPalin will get to sway the court from Fairly Conservative, to fucking _Über Conservative with Christosprinkle_s. From there it isn’t a stretch to overturning Roe. Again, not necessarily likely, but blowing your brains out on the first turn of Russian Roulette isn’t terribly likely either, it’s still better not to play. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/106 "2008-09-09T19:26:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Anywho, the trouble is we’re due for two supreme court justices over the next four… certainly the next eight. It is truly in the realm of possibility that McPalin will get to sway the court from Fairly Conservative, to fucking _Über Conservative with Christosprinkle_s. If you want to beat feet ouf of Dodge because you think a Democratically controlled Congress is going to confirm Fred Phelps to the Supreme Court, you have an even lower opinion of them than I do, and I didn’t think that was possible. > [@](#): > > From there it isn’t a stretch to overturning Roe. Overturning Roe will not make abortion illegal. Roe v. Wade made it illegal for states to regulate abortion in the first two trimesters. The reason liberals react to the idea of overturning it as the Wicked Witch of the West did to water is because it would return power to where the Constitution placed it, in the hands of the people. And liberals don’t trust people to march in lockstep with whatever they are told - there might be the possibility that different states might treat abortion differently. Liberals don’t like that. Much easier to get five old nags in black bathrobes to force things on them by fiat. Still and all, you are even more optimistic than I about prospects for the future. Eight years? How about maybe sixteen - eight years of McCain and eight years of Palin. The energy crisis would be over. We could fuel our cars with the explosions of liberal heads for twenty years, easy. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/107 "2008-09-09T19:35:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Overturning Roe will not make abortion illegal. Roe v. Wade made it illegal for states to regulate abortion in the first two trimesters. The reason liberals react to the idea of overturning it as the Wicked Witch of the West did to water is because it would return power to where the Constitution placed it, in the hands of the people. And liberals don’t trust people to march in lockstep with whatever they are told - there might be the possibility that different states might treat abortion differently. Liberals don’t like that. Much easier to get five old nags in black bathrobes to force things on them by fiat. [/QUOTE] Pretty much agree, aside from the inflammatory language. 🙂 Essentially even if Roe WAS overturned (something that is far from a forgone conclusion), it would only put this back to being a states rights issue. Individual states would have to decide what they wanted to do at that point, and I find it hard to believe that all abortion would be made illegal everywhere…or hell, even that it would fully be illegal anywhere. Thing is, if someone REALLY believes this could happen then the worst thing they could do is cut an run for some supposed foreign paradise…every voice will be needed on the states level to prevent things from tipping to far one direction or the other. Of course, I think the whole notion of people leaving the US because of the election has been vastly over done…if folks didn’t leave when Bush was elected (and RE-elected), despite the fact that the 'Pubs controlled the house and senate at the time, they ain’t going to bolt now either, when the most they can hope for is to win the Presidency while having the Legislature pretty much hung. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/108 "2008-09-09T19:39:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Overturning Roe will not make abortion illegal. Roe v. Wade made it illegal for states to regulate abortion in the first two trimesters. The reason liberals react to the idea of overturning it as the Wicked Witch of the West did to water is because it would return power to where the Constitution placed it, in the hands of the people. And liberals don’t trust people to march in lockstep with whatever they are told - there might be the possibility that different states might treat abortion differently. Liberals don’t like that. Much easier to get five old nags in black bathrobes to force things on them by fiat. The trouble is if McPalin is elected, it shows that a significant portion of the Electorate wants the world I painted above. If it becomes a state issue, they’ll bulldoze the right along with all the other bullshit they want in. It isn’t a state issue any more than slavery is. Basic rights are to be universal, not pickem’ choosem’. > [@](#): > > Still and all, you are even more optimistic than I about prospects for the future. Eight years? How about maybe sixteen - eight years of McCain and eight years of Palin. Eight years of McCain? We gonna give him an armored Rascal to putt around in? > [@](#): > > The energy crisis would be over. We could fuel our cars with the explosions of liberal heads for twenty years, easy. I guess you side with Milton’s Lucifer then, that it’s better to reign in hell and all that? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/109 "2008-09-09T19:39:45Z")
I don’t think many do it either (nor do many really even threaten it). Most people don’t have resources to do it. If I had a ton of money, though, I might consider going and taking vacation in Amsterdam for a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/110 "2008-09-09T19:40:04Z")
The Republican party would abandon the anti-abortion plank in about 5 seconds if they thought they’d actually have to pass laws that stopped abortion. The overturn of Roe v. Wade is the Republican party’s worst nightmare. Nowadays they get the best of both worlds…the votes of committed pro-life voters, and the votes of people who are pro-choice or apathetic about abortion, but vote Republican because they agree with the party on other issues and know that thanks to Roe v. Wade the Republican anti-abortion plank is all talk. Repeal Roe v. Wade and the Republicans either have to abandon the pro-life plank or turn into a minority party for a generation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/111 "2008-09-09T19:50:25Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > So in order to patriotic I should quit my job and train in an entirely different field and then seek employment in that field? > > Gestalt No, you can volunteer, you can write letters, attend demos, etc. But you are saying that it’s better to learn a new language and a new culture and spend 10’s of thousands moving to a new nation instead of a few hours a week volunteering? ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/112 "2008-09-09T19:55:44Z")
I think this country has a long way to go before I’d consider leaving. If McCain wins, and things continue to go in the same direction as they have under Bush, and the religious fundamentalists gain even more influence and power, AND he or his chosen succesor is re-elected for more of the same, and if we pick another candidate who promises more of the same in 2016, I will seriously consider leaving at that point - it would mean that the way things are going now is the long-term trend and things will get dangerously worse before they get better. I’m not going to freak out if McCain wins, and I think if he does things probably won’t get much worse - he won’t be able to achieve much with a thoroughly Democratically controlled congress, and who knows, maybe he WILL shake things up in Washington in some positive way. If he gets re-elected once after a term of being “Bush III” I’ll still have hope at that point, but I’ll be worried. I’m not saying a Democrat has to win in 2016 after another 8 years of mismanagement for me to leave - if a Republican who is very different from what we’ve had wins, that will be a good sign. I’d actually be more optimistic if the Republican party changes in response to our continuing downfall than if we just pick a different party. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/113 "2008-09-09T20:00:36Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Anyway, here’s a long list of current and future expats expressing those feelings and more: > > [**A Growing Trend of Leaving America**](http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/2008/07/28/a-growing-trend-of-leaving-america/comments/) > > Three million a year is not small change and if you read their comments you’ll also notice that the subheading of the article is incorrect. For most of then _are_ leaving due to the current political climate in the United States. > > . Umm, no it isn;t “But that may be putting too negative a reading on this little-noticed trend. In fact, most of today’s expats are not part of a new Lost Generation, moving to Paris or other European haunts to nurse their disillusionment and write their novels. Some may be artists and bohemians, but many more are entrepreneurs, teachers, or skilled knowledge workers in the globalized high-tech economy. Others are members of a retirement bulge that is stretching pensions and IRAs by living abroad” In fact I know a number of both and while certainly many are not happy with GWB they all moved for economic reasons. Let’s face it- although more political freedom is _ **A** _ reason to move out of the USA, most of these dudes are moving South (Mexico, Central & South America), where they have _less_ Political Freedom. Few are moving to the ultra-liberal NW European nations, especially as those nations do not welcome an unlimited flow of US expatriates. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/114 "2008-09-09T20:09:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Amazingly you’re spouting ignorant talking points instead of admitting what bullshit the repubs are slinging. Pointing at another guy and yelling _“he’s even worse!”_ isn’t a defense for detestable acts. Meh. I won’t be voting for either the Republican or Democratic candidate this year, just as I haven’t done for the past 38 years. The revulsion I feel for Obama is hardly partisan. What interests me here is the hypocrisy on your part. You know perfectly well that you’d never be so nonchalant about a Republican who had similar ties to the Klan, and yet you expect me to shrug off Obama’s connection with a bomb slinging left-winger. > [@Lobohan](#): > > [Obama called Ayers’ past radical acts detestable.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-obama-filesaug27,0,2234082.story)The guy is a mover in Obama’s town. Of course they move in the same circles. For fuck’s sake, McCain was one of the Keating 5. Sometimes people you casually know have done shitty things in the past. Welcome to Earth. Ayers is hardly a casual acquaintance; he helped Obama launch his career. Obama didn’t denounce him until political necessity forced him to. Having an association like that with a member of the Weather Underground who doesn’t show the slightest sign of regret or remorse for his actions is a very big deal. Trying to pretend that it isn’t is profoundly dishonest. > [@Lobohan](#): > > And could you please cite the Afro-Nazi portion of the service? The whole damn thing. > [@Lobohan](#): > > If you actually listen to those speeches they aren’t as bad as people make them out to be. They’re fiery, but that’s because religion fosters emotional silliness. :dubious: If you actually listen to these speeches, you can see how full of hatred they are. It was one long scream of boiling hatred for white people and the United States. Anyone who can’t see that is beyond the reach of reason. Look, you can’t have it both ways. If you’re going to suck up to Afro-Nazis like Wright to get the black vote, you have to expect you’re going to lose a lot votes from working class whites. It’s such a hoot, Lobo. Hilary finally twigged to the fact that working class whites could be the critical swing vote that might get her to the White House, but it was too late. The Democratic Party doesn’t seem to have learned much from Hilary, but McCain did, and he used Palin’s nomination to give his campaign a big bounce. The Pubs may not actually do anything for folks like me, but at least they have enough sense not to openly hold us in contempt. The Dems don’t. > [@Lobohan](#): > > If you want to form your opinions based on bullshit talking points that’s your right, but you really shouldn’t go about trumpeting them until you know they’re sound. Well, I’m a lot less concerned about “bullshit talking points” than I am about uncontrolled immigration and uncontrolled public debt. They’re making this country dangerously unstable, and I frankly expect America to suffer a collapse similar to that of the Soviet Union sometime in the next half century. Shucks, I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened next week. And yet neither party is seriously concerned with getting either immigration or debt under control. As I’ve said before, you guys (the Dems _and_ the Pubs) are just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/115 "2008-09-09T20:23:48Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Meh. I won’t be voting for either the Republican or Democratic candidate this year, just as I haven’t done for the past 38 years. Typo. That should be 28 years. Missed the edit window. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/116 "2008-09-09T21:19:48Z")
Whew, finally read the whole thread so I can reply. I recall in 1985 telling a fundie guy I shared a flight with that the RR was a greater threat to the US than the USSR. Nothing I have seen in the decades since has served to alter that view. I really don’t think the republicans would have much sway at all if it weren’t for their ability to manipulate the fundies. Nope, not leaving for several reasons: -The country needs people like me to keep poking the fundies & conservajerks with a stick. They may be able to elect their guy/gal, but nothing says I have to let them enjoy it. I might even attend their victory party where I’ll smile, nod, drink their booze and eat their hors d’vours, then slip off to the head and [upper deck](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=upper%20deck) the crapper. -I agree with the poster upthread who likened the US in it’s current state to an alcoholic mother. (not going back to find the post so I can give proper kudos, sorry) If McCane & Palin are elected, it is just one step closer to to the rock bottom we may need to hit before beginning an effective recovery. W’s honeymoon with a pubbie congress should have been that, but who really knows how deep a hole the fundies can dig us into? -I’ve lived abroad. Some of it is great, some not so great. At least here I understand the system well enough to know where and how to push for change. I need to be part of the solution in order not to be part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![frankzafka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@frankzafka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frankzafka)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/117 "2008-09-09T21:40:05Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > This is out of line. It is unnecessary to the discussion and personally insulting. > > Back off. > > = = = > > In the larger context of what may be said about whom, I will type slowly so that those who could not follow all the previous discussions on the topic can keep up. > > The SDMB prohibits direct personal insults and threats against members. > As an internet site with membership from all walks of life across the U.S. and with a significant international component, it is probably impossible to insult any group without offending the sensibilities of some member of the SDMB. > As long as the insults or maledictions are aimed at a generic group and not tied directly to the membership of any poster in that group, we do, indeed, let such comments alone. > A direct insult against a poster’s parent is hardly a general comment about a group. > > Example: > Had a poster stated that every member of the diplomatic corps was an idiot in the context of a discussion on U.S. relations with the world, **DtC** would have no cause for complaint. (_Note: DtC did not report this incident._) > If DtC were then to loudly protest that his father was a member of the insulted group and that he was offended, he would have been told to take it to the Pit as he would be going out of his way to proclaim his offended feelings when the insult had not been aimed at him. > > Example 2: > We have one notable poster who routinely makes disparaging remarks about one very large group of humanity. > There have been a very few occasions where that poster has expressly linked his general insults to the participation of a poster in that large group. > On every (rare) occasion (of which I am aware) that that poster has linked his insults directly to another member of the SDMB, he has been admonished. > > [/Moderating] Many apologies for coming close to the line. But if DtC wishes to feint in one direction by posting without details to evoke emotion then reply with indignant righteousness that he was misunderstood don’t be surprised that people reply with equal emotion. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/118 "2008-09-09T21:42:11Z")
Does it count if you were looking to leave at some stage anyway? Disclosure: I’m not an American citizen, although my wife is (we do live here though). Barack Obama is well to the right of me politically. A republican win would certainly make us consider leaving sooner rather than later. We’re looking at several options (all of which are available to us with no visa hassles) which all include UHC, laws more friendly to labour and generally better environmental protections. A less militaristic culture would also be a big bonus ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/119 "2008-09-09T22:48:02Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > A less militaristic culture would also be a big bonus. At least until you need America to drive Saddam out of Kuwait and protect Europe’s oil supply, or to stop the Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians and whoever else from killing each other in the Balkans and threatening European political stability, or to play chicken with Russia in Georgia in the hope of loosening Ivan’s grip on their oil supply, or to send the US navy to keep the sea lanes open to protect their oil supply or to station US troops in Europe so as to keep Russia from dominating the entire continent. Of course, the Euros could do all this for themselves–but it would mean developing a “militaristic culture” of their own. They’d rather have the Yanks shed the blood, spend the money, take the risks, and suffer their disdain for our “militaristic culture.” Could the Euros afford universal health care if they had to pay the full cost of their own defense? ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620/120 "2008-09-09T22:56:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > At least until you need America to drive Saddam out of Kuwait and protect Europe’s oil supply, or to stop the Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Albanians and whoever else from killing each other in the Balkans and threatening European political stability, or to play chicken with Russia in Georgia in the hope of loosening Ivan’s grip on their oil supply, or to send the US navy to keep the sea lanes open to protect their oil supply or to station US troops in Europe so as to keep Russia from dominating the entire continent. Of course, the Euros could do all this for themselves–but it would mean developing a “militaristic culture” of their own. They’d rather have the Yanks shed the blood, spend the money, take the risks, and suffer their disdain for our “militaristic culture.” > > Could the Euros afford universal health care if they had to pay the full cost of their own defense? This is the bully in the schoolyard. Stealing someone else’s lunch money is in your interest therefore you have a right to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-seriously-considering-leaving-the-u-s-if-mccain-wins/462620.md?page=7)