# Anyone support male Circumcision but NOT female **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 24, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429 "2004-11-24T05:45:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/21 "2004-11-25T02:38:50Z")
Not to drag the discussion down or anything but isn’t the “dick cheese” factor a point in favor of circumcsion. Snippage allows for slightly better hygene and reduces the chance of penile cancer to zero. I think those two things alone make a marginal case in favor of circumcision. As far as the “involuntary” nature of it, well, I’ve never met a guy in my life who ever seemed to resent the fact that he was circumcised or care at all. That includes me. Maybe some guys find the time and energy to fume about it but I’ve never met one who said so out loud. My wife and I have got one in the oven right now, so we’ve had this discussion recently. Just like with the first kid, we’ve decide that if it’s a boy we’re going to circumcise. It just seems like the cleaner thing to do on balance (and I really don’t want to have to learn how to clean a baby’s foreskin nor do I want to have to explain down the line why Daddy’s Johnson looks different than sonny’s. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/22 "2004-11-25T02:52:01Z")
Just to clarify one again, I am 100% opposed to female circumcision (aka mutilation, and I don’t think it’s too extreme to use the same term for male circumcision- if not, how much healthy tissue actually has to be cut from it to make it mutilation? How many thousands of nerve endings are expendable in the name of, well, tradition? Also, I still haven’t found any info about the conditions of male circumcision in countries where female mutilation also occurs) > [@](#): > > not enough adult men are complaining about being circumcised as babies, and in fact, enough of them prefer or or have no problem > [@](#): > > I doubt you’ll find any woman happy to say if their clitoris were removed tomorrow they wouldn’t miss it much. But there ARE men complaining about being circumcised ([circumcision.org](http://circumcision.org), [http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/onlinewbwr.htm](http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/onlinewbwr.htm)), as well as plenty of women who’ve had the procedure done who have absolutely no problem with it- why are they completely ignorant of their own victimization while circumcised men are not? > [@](#): > > - Circumcision was favoured by women for appearance and hygiene. This is almost a word for word repetition of a common justification for female circumcision (replacing “women” with “men”) I realize that this isn’t exactly a burning issue. I just find it so extremely odd that this procedure, supported at one time in America (along with female circumcision, believe it or not), for the sole reason of curbing masturbation (which was obviously the cause of TB, epilepsy, insanity, etc.), is so ingrained in society that people barely even question it. It’s just interesting what things, no matter how barbaric the may seem at a fundamental level (e.g. cutting a defenseless child’s genitals when most parents won’t even let them sleep alone in a room), can become completely routine. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/23 "2004-11-25T03:17:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **Diogenes** said: > Not to drag the discussion down or anything but isn’t the “dick cheese” factor a point in favor of circumcsion. I don’t want to get into a big argument over male circumcision because that’s not the point of this thread, but I do want to say that the ‘dick cheese’ thing doesn’t hold a lot of water with me. The male is not circumcised, and because he has good hygiene habits (like washing thorougly) he never really has dick cheese. So far as I know, it’s not advised to try to retract a baby’s foreskin to clean under it because there’s no significant problem with dick cheese buildup while the foreskin is still attached to the glans, and that most boys who are uncircumcised figure out how to retract it on their own when it starts to detach normally. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/24 "2004-11-25T06:30:41Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > I don’t want to get into a big argument over male circumcision because that’s not the point of this thread, but I do want to say that the ‘dick cheese’ thing doesn’t hold a lot of water with me. What _does_ hold water with you? You have been shown medical and hygienic advantages of circumcision, and have dismissed them without good reason. We are not talking about your personal preferences, but about the actual science involved. You’ll notice we are not discussing “what looks better” or “what is easier to perform fellatio on” or “what respects the rights of the child” or whatever, which are indeed more subjective items. No, we are talking hygiene and health benefits which doctors seem to agree are conferred by circumcision. As for dick cheese, though I am not in the habit of arguing by analogy: when I have short hair, it is easier to clean and stays clean longer (1-2 days); if I have longer hair, it gets dirty much more quickly (half a day). I hope that explains the general thinking. This is not a discussion about cultural or esthetic practices… is it? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/25 "2004-11-25T06:52:13Z")
“Dick cheese” is such a crude and ugly word! Can’t we just call it “smegma?” ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/26 "2004-11-25T07:16:23Z")
Yes indeed, sorry. It should have been in quotations in my previous post, since I was repeating the term employed by a couple other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Bromley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@Bromley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bromley)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/27 "2004-11-25T10:34:47Z")
> [@Cat Fight](#): > > But there ARE men complaining about being circumcised ([circumcision.org](http://circumcision.org), [http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/onlinewbwr.htm](http://www.circumcisionvideos.com/onlinewbwr.htm)), as well as plenty of women who’ve had the procedure done who have absolutely no problem with it- why are they completely ignorant of their own victimization while circumcised men are not? Do you have a cite for the male complaints that we can read online? I don’t fancy ordering a video. A quick search threw up [this](http://www.circumcision.org/adults.htm), which would tend to support your point. Personally, I’ve never had a problem with sensitivity, but I was cut as a child. Also, do you have a cite for women who have been circumcised and yet say that it does not impede their sex lives? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/28 "2004-11-25T16:12:54Z")
> [@](#): > > **Abe** said: > This is not a discussion about cultural or esthetic practices… is it? Considering that the health benefits are far from proven, that well-respected medical institutions no longer recommend the practice or even think it should be done routinely, I don’t think you’ve shown me any such thing as scientific proof that lopping off all those nerve endings is acceptable. You want me to change my mind? Prove that it is so _medically necessary_ it has to be done in infancy when the person being cut can’t consent. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/29 "2004-11-25T23:50:32Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Considering that the health benefits are far from proven, that well-respected medical institutions no longer recommend the practice or even think it should be done routinely, I don’t think you’ve shown me any such thing as scientific proof that lopping off all those nerve endings is acceptable. Nor have you actually shown anything to the contrary. And **Ambushed** provided a lenghty series of arguments for health factors, all of which you have ignored or dismissed. To recap the simplest ones that are not in dispute, some of these are [explained by Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940128.html): - complications from infant circumcision are extremely rare (0.2 to 0.6%) - circumcision effectively brings to zero the chances of developing penile cancer - Circumcision eliminates foreskin problems including inflammation and failure to retract (which “persist in non-circumcising nations such as the UK despite presumed familiarity with proper foreskin hygiene”) - circumcision improves or at the very least facilitates penis hygiene - no smegma These are well established claims. Additionally, there is some conflicting evidence that circumcision may help prevent some STDs. There is no evidence to suggest that circumcised men enjoy sex any less than uncircumcised men, despite your loaded claim about “lopping off all those nerve endings”. Cecil’s take on your argument: “The chief evidence for this seems to be research by John Taylor. Dr. Taylor opposes circumcision, has not formally published his research, and is not a specialist in neurology. His remarks on the structure and purpose of the foreskin are highly conjectural and include such statements as, “We haven’t done a strict quantitative study [but] to my mind [certain nerve endings] are rather more commonly found here in the prepuce than they are in the glans of the penis.” It would be foolish on the basis of such work to make any definite statements about the foreskin’s contribution to sexual sensitivity or anything else.” > [@](#): > > You want me to change my mind? Prove that it is so _medically necessary_ it has to be done in infancy when the person being cut can’t consent. I’m not interested in proving medical necessity for infant circumcision or changing your mind, since neither of these is the point of your hijack. But the facts would appear to be rather different from what you have presented without the necessary support. I will note however that the complication rate for infant circumcision is extremely low, as quoted above; it does however rise to 2-10% when the procedure is performed post-infancy (Williams, British Journal of Surgery, 1993), since it is a more traumatic procedure later in life. It would therefore make more sense to undergo the procedure as an infant if it is elected for medical and hygienic reasons, given that the risks are so very low. I won’t bother discussing cultural and esthetic points of view, since everyone justly has his or her own opinion on these. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/30 "2004-11-30T10:47:18Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > You want me to change my mind? Prove that it is so _medically necessary_ it has to be done in infancy when the person being cut can’t consent. Most surgeries are not “medically necessary”. If you want to get technical, all surgeries are optional. You can always just get sick or die, you know. There are decisions that all parents must make about their children without getting their consent, and there are cases that failing to do so has or should have criminal penalties. In this case, some of the very real medical benefits of male circumcision fail to acrue if the surgery is not performed during infancy, such as the 100% prevention of penile cancer. Furthermore, circumcision later in llife is more dangerous and more painful, and so that decision is a less responsible choice. Also, we should realize that evolution doesn’t create perfect bodies, especially for the modern era. We retain foreskins only because we used to run around naked and we needed to protect our peckers from getting caught in brambles and such. Considering all the numerous health benefits of male circumcision, we should consider male circumcisions to be a simple surgical correction of a problem evolution hasn’t gotten around to fixing yet. ---
**Author:** ![easy\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb8c5e/32.png) [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/31 "2004-12-01T04:10:35Z")
There are generally 3 different types of female circumcision/genital mutilation. > [@](#): > > FGC [female genital cutting] is practiced in several forms, depending on the customs of the particular culture. The mildest form is called _sunna_ and refers to the removal of the just the clitoral hood (prepuce), not the clitoris; it the only procedure that could be legitimately called “female circumcision,” analogous to male circumcision. In its mildest form, it may involve only making a slit in the prepuce, not removing it. A second form of FGC is _excision_ (sometimes known as _clitoridectomy_), which refers to complete removal of the clitoris and perhaps some of the inner lips. The most extreme form is _infibulation_ or pharaonic circumcision (named for the pharaohs of Egypt, under whose reign the practice is said to have originated thousands of years ago). It involves the removal of the clitoris, all of the inner lips, and part of the outer lips; the raw edges of the outer lips are then stitched together to cover the urethral opening and the vaginal entrance, with only a small opening left for the passage of urine and menstrual fluid. As **Abe** mentioned, there are other forms of male genital cutting besides circumcision: > [@](#): > > Other forms of male genital cutting are done throughout the world. In fact, male genital cutting is done in more cultures than is female genital cutting (Gregersen, 1996). A common form, across most of Polynesia, is **supercision** (also known as _superincision_), which involves making a slit the length of the foreskin on the top, with the foreskin otherwise remaining intact (Gregersen, 1996). With **subincision** , which is common in some tribes in central Australia, a slit is made on the lower side of the penis along its entire length and to the depth of the urethra. Urin is then excreted at the base rather than at the tip of the penis. I just wanted to add that I’m not trying to support male or female genital cutting. Oh, and both quotes were from “Understanding Human Sexuality”, 8th edition, JS Hyde and JD DeLamater, 2003. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/32 "2004-12-01T05:09:54Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > “Dick cheese” is such a crude and ugly word! Can’t we just call it “smegma?” I wish you wouldn’t… ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/33 "2004-12-02T02:41:28Z")
The effect of circumsion on penile cancer rates now seems to be thought overstated: [American Cancer Society article](http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/content/CRI_2_4_2X_Can_penile_cancer_be_prevented_35.asp?sitearea=) Talking out of my hat though, the recent linking of viruses to various cancers makes me think any ease of cleaning is worth what is a rather small sacrifice. At least I notice no sacrifice, seems to work just dandy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/34 "2004-12-02T03:03:24Z")
Let me pile my numberage on top of the “entirely different worlds” thing. Male circumcision doesn’t have anything even remotely vaguely close to the effect on the individual as female circumcision does. I got cicumcised, so I dunno what advantages I have or whatever. Not having to deal with smegma seems like a nice enough thing, so I’m pretty content with it overall. I probably will give any theoretical children I may or may not have the choice for themselves, though. ---
**Author:** ![mlerose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@mlerose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlerose)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2004, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/35 "2004-12-02T22:40:18Z")
Being sans penis, I suppose this really isn’t any of my business, but I’ve always been of the opinion that if it’s a functional and healthy body part it shouldn’t be cut off. The foreskin is there for several reasons. As for the “preventing penile cancer” issue, breast cancer risk would be reduced virtually to zero if all women had radical mastectomies post-puberty, but nobody’s advocating that, are they? If you cut off a body part, sure, it won’t get cancer. Don’t you think it’s a little extreme to cut off a piece of a kid’s genitals when he’s not old enough to know what’s going on, let alone have a say in the matter, just to prevent the possibility of a cancer that’s not very common anyway? I say, if a kid wants to have his foreskin removed when he’s old enough to understand what that means, it’s his body and he should be able to make that choice. I understand religious arguments, but if you aren’t Jewish, those arguments don’t hold water. And since male circumcision in this country was popularized to prevent masturbation, and most American men have been circumsized in the last what, 70 years? and pretty much every one of them has masturbated, I think that the campaign to keep boys from jacking off has pretty much failed miserably. The very slight, IMHO, percieved benefits from circumcision don’t outweigh the fact that you’re CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF THE KID’S PENIS without his consent. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/36 "2004-12-03T02:11:09Z")
Both are done just for the benefit of men. No problem with the male; big one for female. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/37 "2004-12-03T03:09:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _mlerose said_: > The very slight, IMHO, percieved benefits from circumcision don’t outweigh the fact that you’re CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF THE KID’S PENIS without his consent. You do realize that EVERYTHING IN HIS ENTIRE LIFE is done without his consent for the next 12-16 years. 🙂 I’m here to say, I have been circumcised and the idea that my parents took some choice away from me has never entered my mind- except on a purely intellectual level brought out by something like this thread. At this level, I still got no problem with it. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/38 "2004-12-03T04:55:54Z")
[QUOTE=mlerose] I understand religious arguments, but if you aren’t Jewish, those arguments don’t hold water. QUOTE] Or Muslim. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/39 "2004-12-03T09:13:49Z")
> [@mlerose](#): > > The very slight, IMHO, percieved benefits from circumcision don’t outweigh the fact that you’re CUTTING OFF A PIECE OF THE KID’S PENIS without his consent. Sigh. It’s NOT very slight, it’s considerable. See my first post. Second, your thinking is about as informed as screaming OH MY GAWD THEIR IMMUNIZING THAT KID WITHOUT HIS CONSENT! GASP! Try to get over it. There are things that must be should be done and their are better and worse times to do them. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2004, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429/40 "2004-12-03T10:50:25Z")
Does male circumcision IMPROVE the male sexual experience? It would seem to me that removal of the foreskin would allow for greater stimulation of thenerves (on the head of the penis), and therefore prolong/improve orgasm. Is there any research on this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-support-male-circumcision-but-not-female/276429.md?page=3)