# Anyone wanna concede their most elite special forces are not the best in the world in some respect? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 30, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279 "2012-10-30T00:59:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/21 "2012-10-30T14:13:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > What - no reference to the Gurkhas? Gurkhas are awesome. Scary awesome. Gurkhas are line infantry. ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/22 "2012-10-30T15:33:32Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Canada’s JTF2. Feeling compelled to ask for permission and apologize after every shot considerably cuts down our rate of fire. I realize you are making a joke, but having close friends in JTF2 and CSOR, I am compelled to tell you that you are mistaken. Our special forces are comparable to any other “powerhouse” country as far as training, expertise and professionalism. The fact you don’t hear much about them is entirely due to the simple reason that it’s how they want it - no attention is good attention. A few years ago, there was a photo mis-identifying a few members as US Special Forces - they were thrilled. Interestingly, despite the changing sizes of the main body military, our special forces for all of the main players tend to be about the same size - mostly because anything bigger is too unwiedly and anything smaller is ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/23 "2012-10-30T16:40:06Z")
> [@Poysyn](#): > > I realize you are making a joke, but having close friends in JTF2 and CSOR, I am compelled to tell you that you are mistaken. Our special forces are comparable to any other “powerhouse” country as far as training, expertise and professionalism. > > The fact you don’t hear much about them is entirely due to the simple reason that it’s how they want it - no attention is good attention. > > A few years ago, there was a photo mis-identifying a few members as US Special Forces - they were thrilled. > > Interestingly, despite the changing sizes of the main body military, our special forces for all of the main players tend to be about the same size - mostly because anything bigger is too unwiedly and anything smaller is ineffective. CSOR is a mix of the 75th Rangers and the Green Berets, right? Size accross countries: Approximately what are we talking about? I’ve seen estimates that went from 500 (small battalion) to 2000 (small regiment). Most other types of units don’t have much difficulty scaling up from battalion to regiment to brigade to division to corps to army to army group. Why are SF forces unwiedly when they get above the low thousands? ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/24 "2012-10-30T17:01:23Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > CSOR is a mix of the 75th Rangers and the Green Berets, right? > > Size accross countries: Approximately what are we talking about? I’ve seen estimates that went from 500 (small battalion) to 2000 (small regiment). > > Most other types of units don’t have much difficulty scaling up from battalion to regiment to brigade to division to corps to army to army group. Why are SF forces unwiedly when they get above the low thousands? Depends on what you consider as the “special forces” - Delta is probably about the same size as JTF2. I mean the small, more specialized forces. You would never need a Brigade because they are never really used that way. Sorry, upon re-reading what I wrote, I can see I made it unclear in the first place - my bad. Once you include Green Berets, Rangers, etc then no…we are not as big 🙂 I will hold to - we are just as good. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/25 "2012-10-30T17:22:16Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > In _some_ respect? Well, I bet I could beat them all in a race to get all the standard achievements in Minecraft starting with a fresh account :D, so in that “respect” they aren’t the best in the world! Exactly. For example; The Nave SEALS can’t knit to save their lives, if you need a tea cozy look to the Brits. The Israelis and considered to be the worst bakers, leave that to the French. And it’s pretty much understood that at the annual Special Forces summer picnic the Aussies will show up empty handed and drink all the fuckin’ beer. ---
**Author:** ![Bouncer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Bouncer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bouncer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/26 "2012-10-30T21:03:38Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I learned something about special forces that surprised me. I wondered why the Iran hostage rescue mission failed so miserably (around 1979) and I found out we didn’t really have special forces before that (it was one of their first missions). We had special forces, including Green Berets, SEALs, and Delta Force, the problem was, every single branch down to the Jr. Boy Scouts just had to be included in the mission for a variety of mostly political reasons, and so we ended up with what can only be described as a clusterfuck of epic proportions. Marine aviators flying navy choppers filled with US Army personnel, being supported by Air Force choppers and Air Force C-130’s, along with Navy top cover. Just the radio command and control was completely hosed as you had non-compatible crypto, radios and other devices. Joint Special Operations Command was a direct result of the failure in Iran. It kinda tells you how badly the clusterfuck was when the entire US Military says “Welp, we need a whole new command to handle these intra-agency thingys, cause that shit went completely sideways but quick”. Regards, -Bouncer- ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/27 "2012-10-30T21:22:45Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > And it’s pretty much understood that at the annual Special Forces summer picnic the Aussies will show up empty handed and drink all the fuckin’ beer. No, no, no. We bring a slab of Fosters and then drink the good stuff everyone else brings. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/28 "2012-10-30T22:16:38Z")
> [@Simple\_Linctus](#): > > Please note I am only talking about the best troops in the most elite regiments and while it would be ridiculous to ignore equipment, it would also be nuts to pretend equipment made no difference either. Spec/ops exists for a reason that is defined by circumstances. In the 40’s with world war two and the aftermath, they were long range expendable assets. Come the fifties, they reverted to a cadre level, and were used as fire brigades putting out regional fires, before they could escalate to a war situation in the new atomic age. An SAS squadron is not something that would have gotten moscow up in arms over, which is where that cute movie quote comes into being, if captured we will disavow all knowledge of you, and my personal favourite, which is sheepdipping. President Kennedy in the sixties, expanded the green beret progam as small groups of military advisors, would be force multipliers for smaller nations that had recently been former colonies, so they would be what we call stake holders, in their new independence. The other side of the coin was that it was expected that europe would fall over, had the soviets decided to go west, tenth special forces, were stay behinds, rallying a resistance movements and blowing shit up, for this they trained with back pack nukes. With the vietnam war, special forces both grew and diversified. The Seals grew out of the UDT program , the army developed the long range recon patrols( lrrps) pronounced lurps, beefed up the airborne ranger program, so it would resemble what the marines would call special operations capable in todays world, the airforce developed the night stalkers among their contributiom to the spec/ops world, along with some other programs like CSAR and the parajumpers and combat controllers. Vietnam ends as a comflict and the services revert to peacetime manning levels, many fiefdoms are wiped out overnight, as officers either retire or are folded back into standard formations. Then came Eagle Claw, as noted upthread. Had it strictly been a marine or airborne/ ranger operation, it still might have failed, but not for the reasons it did get aborted. Bottom line is that special forces are elite formations that require a skill set on how and when to use them in a strategic role. Is devgru and delta good now, yes, will they be in 10 years is what defines the best in my opinion. Some one else mention Canada’s contribution , the JTF2 group. I find it disturbing, that for what ever reason that we have not stood up an SAS formation formally. I do believe that the JT guys are world class, but the moniker sounds like a disposable paper form, rather than a historic formation. Given a different political climate, i can see the unit being disbanded and dispersed back to their parent regiments, and quite possibly losing those skill sets, within a matter of years. Declan ---
**Author:** ![elli1974](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e79b87/32.png) [@elli1974](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elli1974)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/29 "2013-10-10T16:02:59Z")
ASKANCE. What fantasy books have you been reading. Australia is an inconsequential part of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think your deluded if you think Australian special forces have been given any major responsibility. You guys just don’t have the necessary training and experience done by US and UK special ops. You need to be honest with yourself. ---
**Author:** ![elli1974](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e79b87/32.png) [@elli1974](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elli1974)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/30 "2013-10-10T16:06:49Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Which SF are the best or second-best? Its not a useful inquiry in my opinion. All of them are first rate soldiers. > > What might be interesting is to compare the different training regimes and the skills developed. > > The SAS (UK, Oz, and NZ) have physical endurance as a core requirement. By comparison the US chaps - Delta and SEALS concentrate on strength, building up impressive muscle mass. SAS soldiers are surprisingly small and wiry in real life. > > Reportedly there is an annual E&E (Escape and Evade) exercise over a number of days between Delta and SAS both being chased by US Rangers. The SAS are slightly ahead on success because the larger and heavier Delta soldiers eventually become exhausted. KEN. As an Indian, everyone in the world has American special ops as the most elite. Navy Seals BUDs its far more difficult than SAS selection course. Yes, the 30 mile rucksack march is hard, but US special ops are more “hellish” in their training. Plus, the prood is in the pudding. The facts are with the US. They have more combat experience, more riskier missions, and success rate then anyone else. Yes, including the SAS. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/31 "2013-10-10T16:13:42Z")
[quote=“Simple\_Linctus, post:1, topic:639279”] I would say that people from the following countries: [ul][li]Australia[_]France[_]Israe[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] It’s hilarious to read that as cutting off right when you start to discuss the Israeli special forc ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/32 "2013-10-10T16:17:30Z")
> [@elli1974](#): > > KEN. As an Indian, everyone in the world has American special ops as the most elite. Navy Seals BUDs its far more difficult than SAS selection course. Yes, the 30 mile rucksack march is hard, but US special ops are more “hellish” in their training. Plus, the prood is in the pudding. The facts are with the US. They have more combat experience, more riskier missions, and success rate then anyone else. Yes, including the SAS. You revived a thread that is about a year old-the people you are talking to have moved on to other topics and probably aren’t following this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/33 "2013-10-10T16:27:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You revived a thread that is about a year old He’s on a mission! ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/34 "2013-10-10T16:35:15Z")
Sometimes these ultra-deep spec-ops take time to fully develop. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/35 "2013-10-10T17:39:55Z")
Imho, all us special forces are too equipment based. Take away their toys and a low level mma, sambo, or Jiu jitsu practitioner could probably take them out. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/36 "2013-10-10T19:18:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You revived a thread that is about a year old-the people you are talking to have moved on to other topics and probably aren’t following this thread. WTH kind of comment is this??? EVERY revived thread has these characteristics. ---
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/37 "2013-10-10T19:38:07Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > WTH kind of comment is this??? EVERY revived thread has these characteristics. The poster is new, and probably found this thread through a search. He/she may not know that this is a zombie thread. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/38 "2013-10-11T09:27:12Z")
> [@elli1974](#): > > KEN. As an Indian, everyone in the world has American special ops as the most elite. Navy Seals BUDs its far more difficult than SAS selection course. Yes, the 30 mile rucksack march is hard, but US special ops are more “hellish” in their training. Plus, the prood is in the pudding. The facts are with the US. They have more combat experience, more riskier missions, and success rate then anyone else. Yes, including the SAS. Correct comparison with SEALs would be the SBS, not the SAS. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/39 "2013-10-11T10:54:08Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I’d say French special forces had one of the worst PR disasters ever when they [sank the Rainbow Warrior.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior) [URL=“[Operation Eagle Claw - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle_Claw)”] That’s not special forces though, those were intelligence spooks. Very possibly formerspecial forces spooks, but spooks nevertheless. French special forces would be the Foreign Legion, the Commandos d’Infanterie de Marine, the various Régiments Parachutistes, the GIGN and the counter-terrorism squad. Of those, I’d say only the FFL has any international recognition as a badass outfit, which is probably deserved if only for their training regimen and its high mortality rate. I wouldn’t think they’re the best in the world, however - they’re kinda like the US Marines : we send them under-equipped, under-supported and under-prepared in foreign hell-holes, and as a result they then proceed to die in glorious albeit futile last stands to buy some time for the rest of the armed forces 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279/40 "2013-10-11T10:57:30Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Correct comparison with SEALs would be the SBS, not the SAS. And SBS selection only starts after SAS selection has been completed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyone-wanna-concede-their-most-elite-special-forces-are-not-the-best-in-the-world-in-some-respect/639279.md?page=3)