Anyone with hands-on practical experience with fire bows?

[DrDeth]

@Chronos

It’s also fun to think about how to make fire, without using any tools that needed fire in their making. Flint by itself won’t work-- You also need steel. Which was forged in fire.

You can make fire with just two rocks. No steel needed. By no means is it easy.
http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/twostones/abbww/index.html

[MrDibble]

@Chronos

It’s also fun to think about how to make fire, without using any tools that needed fire in their making. Flint by itself won’t work-- You also need steel.

No, you don’t. You can use pyrite (like Ötzi’ the Iceman did) - it’s where the name comes from, after all.

A burning glass? First you had to melt the glass

You could, theoretically, make one by polishing rock crystal. Or ice.

[Dead_Cat]

Sorry I have nothing useful to add, just wanted to say that this thread is the best combination of funny and informative that I have seen in a while - thanks all.

[Chronos]

OK, so there are other materials that can be used. But a lot of folks seem to think that it’s just the flint that’s important, and that you could get sparks by striking one flint against another. But you can’t: The sparks are actually tiny flecks of steel, being abraded off by the flint.

(and I had idly wondered whether the name “pyrite” was connected to fire; thanks for that bit of info)

[Malthus]

@MrDibble

No, you don’t. You can use pyrite (like Ötzi’ the Iceman did) - it’s where the name comes from, after all.
You could, theoretically, make one by polishing rock crystal. Or ice.

This is interesting (abstract only, alas):

Making fire in the Stone Age: flint and pyrite - Geologie en Mijnbouw

Flint implements with rounded ends, excavated at several Late Palaeolithic sites in Denmark and the Netherlands, are described and interpreted as strike-a-lights used in combination with pyrites. Experiments were carried out; the use-wear traces on the experimental pieces are similar to those occurring on the prehistoric specimens. It is concluded that the pyrite technique for fire production most probably predated wood-on-wood techniques, both in Europe and Greenland.

Predated wood-on-wood? Now that is something I would not have expected.

[MrDibble]

@Malthus

Predated wood-on-wood? Now that is something I would not have expected.

We’ve been using stone tools around two million years longer than we’ve been controlling (not necessarily making) fire, so it’s not unreasonable to expect we’d have some familiarity with what happens when you bang different kinds of rocks together.

[ftg]

“We’ll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together, guys.” Douglas Adams, HHGttG.

[Lumpy]

@GMANCANADA

For what it’s worth: a distant relative of my wife married a military survival instriuctor, who also happened to have been on the show Survivor in an early season.

We met him at a wedding and talked about the experience. His comment was that making a fire without tools is made to look easy in TV and movies, but it’s one of the absolute hardest things to do in a real survival situation, (especially when you’re in a damp tropical jungle like Survivor).

The other contestants got pissed off at him when he couldn’t do it as easy as they’d seen it done in movies, so they voted him off.

Bottom line: you’re not alone, it’s a real challenge.

And of course even the best will have trouble sometimes:

They moved to a clump of trees, and though it was drier under them, the wind shook the rain off the leaves, and the drip, drip, was most annoying. Also the mischief seemed to have gotten into the fire. Dwarves can make a fire almost anywhere out of almost anything, wind or no wind; but they could not do it that night, not even Oin and Gloin, who were especially good at it.

[Malthus]

@MrDibble

We’ve been using stone tools around two million years longer than we’ve been controlling (not necessarily making) fire, so it’s not unreasonable to expect we’d have some familiarity with what happens when you bang different kinds of rocks together.

True … but even though it creates few traces in the archaeological record, we’ve probably been using sticks even longer than stones.

But yeah, it goes to show that banging rocks together is probably the easier method than various forms of rubbing sticks - it turns out you have to make a reasonably sophisticated little device to get wood-on-wood friction to work.

I suppose it ought not to be surprising that knapping lead to fire first, really.

[MrDibble]

@Malthus

True … but even though it creates few traces in the archaeological record, we’ve probably been using sticks even longer than stones.

I don’t know - You’d think that then, we’d have hafted spearpoints before choppers, or shortly after, rather than two million years later still just using sticks. On the other hand, chimps use pointed sticks so we can move “stick use” to earlier than Schöningen, probably - but even monkeys and frigging otters use rocks, so I think they still would predate sticks.

Although, I’m being a leeetle tongue-in-cheek in comparing the two.

it turns out you have to make a reasonably sophisticated little device to get wood-on-wood friction to work.

You can just do it with two sticks. But even for experts, many hands make light work.

[Malthus]

@MrDibble

I don’t know - You’d think that then, we’d have hafted spearpoints before choppers, or shortly after, rather than two million years later still just using sticks. On the other hand, chimps use pointed sticks so we can move “stick use” to earlier than Schöningen, probably - but even monkeys and frigging otters use rocks, so I think they still would predate sticks.

Although, I’m being a leeetle tongue-in-cheek in comparing the two.

You can just do it with two sticks. But even for experts, many hands make light work.

Damn, that’s very interesting. I never knew it was even possible without a bow.

But yeah, unless you happen to have five San friends with you …

[Lumpy]

@Malthus

Damn, that’s very interesting. I never knew it was even possible without a bow.

But yeah, unless you happen to have five San friends with you …

Yeah, that is THE absolute hardcore three-feathers-in-your-cap pinnacle of fire starting. Anyone who can do that reliably is Fire Mage character class.

[Chronos]

In my example of my scout patrol getting it to work, the final successful attempt gave up the bow (because by then, we’d broken all the cords we had for it and then some). I’m not sure if that qualifies as Fire Mage, though, because if we were, we would have managed it long before resorting to that.

[buddha_david]

I’m disappointed that this thread isn’t about this kind of fire bow.

[dropzone]

Had to start a fire with a bow at a Boy Scout Camp-O-Ree, but I was the PL so I had staff for that. Using flint and steel was much easier because I used steel wool for tinder.

[Gorsnak]

@Malthus

Damn, that’s very interesting. I never knew it was even possible without a bow.

But yeah, unless you happen to have five San friends with you …

Check out the Youtube channel Primitive Technology. Aussie dude starts fires that way all the time. Also, is a total stone age wizard.

[Lumpy]

I did finally manage to get a glowing ember from a fire drill- three times in fact. Unfortunately I somehow couldn’t get the tinder to catch from it. I have gotten tinder to flame from other sources like flint and steel on char cloth; I’m trying now to bridge the gap.

Lessons learned: tight bowstring, especially one that is not going to loosen while you’re bowing. And patience; 40-80 strokes my keester, try like 200.

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that it’s easy to look like a wizard on YouTube. You just discard the 200 attempts that didn’t work and upload the one that did.

[Gorsnak]

I’m pretty sure he didn’t make 200 attempts to build a wattle & daub hut with ceramic tile roof using only stone tools before uploading the attempt that worked. It’s entirely possible the fire-starting sequences are heavily truncated, but when I said ‘stone age wizard’ I wasn’t referring to the firestarting per se.

[MrDibble]

@Lumpy

I did finally manage to get a glowing ember from a fire drill- three times in fact. Unfortunately I somehow couldn’t get the tinder to catch from it. I have gotten tinder to flame from other sources like flint and steel on char cloth; I’m trying now to bridge the gap.

Are you piling the tinder around or under the drill hole, or only moving it in place after you have a glowing ember?