# Anything else you motherfuckers need? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231 "2009-07-16T16:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/181 "2009-07-17T02:41:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Do you think government serves _any_ legitimate function, then? Yes. To protect my individual freedoms & individual liberties. Federally-subsidized/mandated health care is the antithesis of individual liberty. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/182 "2009-07-17T02:43:09Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > In a market-driven system, customers would fire those companies and purchase insurance from a better company. I want to purchase my insurance from the governement. If I allowed to choose how I am to be victimized, I choose indifferent incompetence over deliberate avarice any day. At least slow-witted civil servants are not motivated by the pursuit of profit to find ways to deny service when I need it most, and powerless to fight back. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/183 "2009-07-17T02:44:18Z")
But you’re \*already \*free and at liberty to not use any government services. Rejoice! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/184 "2009-07-17T02:44:19Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hypothetically, under such a system, could someone safely get away with murder by killing someone who couldn’t afford the police fee? Or would police services make an exception for such crimes? If you choose not to make the sacrifices to purchase LE services, then you are taking a big risk. Me? I would definitely purchase it. But I should not have the moral authority to force someone else to purchase it (via taxes). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/185 "2009-07-17T02:44:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No, just mostly wrong. > > Arguing that government is inefficient is meaningless when you look at the vast wasteland the free market has created in healthcare. I wouldn’t say they’re inefficient, i’d say it’s a closed economic system. You pay before you go then get stuck with what you get. I have a shelf full of horse shit computer games that can attest to the efficiency of this system. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/186 "2009-07-17T02:45:53Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > But you’re \*already \*free and at liberty to not use any government services. I am forced at gunpoint to pay for federal “services” that the federal government has no authority providing. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/187 "2009-07-17T02:46:36Z")
You know, they always say that, but I’ve never seen a single armed IRS agent. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/188 "2009-07-17T02:47:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I want to purchase my insurance from the governement. Fine. But why are you forcing me at gunpoint to do the same? And I thought liberals were pro-choice… ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/189 "2009-07-17T02:47:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > We have general prosperity because of the government. Because of the regulations and infrastructure the government provides America is a profitable place to run a business. I agree. > [@](#): > > Accessible health care is infrastructure, like a road or a fiber optic line. It will act as a lever and make the money of big business go farther. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Understander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3da27b/32.png) [@The\_Understander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Understander)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/190 "2009-07-17T02:48:38Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hypothetically, under such a system, could someone safely get away with murder by killing someone who couldn’t afford the police fee? Or would police services make an exception for such crimes? To play devil’s\* advocate, I imagine that there could be a system whereby concerned citizens could donate into neighborhood pools to pay for security forces. Those who can’t afford to contribute to the pool would, of course, be excluded from security services. But, hey, guns are cheap. Vigilantes, blood-feuds, armed gangs as powerful as most metropolitan police forces… it’d be a Malthusian Utopia! \*no offense to Lucifer for equating him with this ridiculous system ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/191 "2009-07-17T02:48:48Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Health care is a personal responsibility, not a social responsibility. News Flash: The society has decided that it will be. Deal with it or try to secede from society. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/192 "2009-07-17T02:49:06Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > LOL … the only reason you HAVE it in the first place is because the government secures your property rights for you. Without the government protecting your sorry ass from the unwashed masses, you would have been eaten by the poor long ago. I agree that one of the things the government should do is to secure property rights. We are therefore in agreement. Glad to have you on my side. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/193 "2009-07-17T02:49:46Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Fine. But why are you forcing me at gunpoint to do the same? And I thought liberals were pro-choice… I love the ‘at gunpoint’ it really brings out the whole martyr aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/194 "2009-07-17T02:50:09Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I believe the governing philosophy at work here is “Poor people; Fuck 'em”. I thinking helping poor people is very noble and admirable. And I send money to charities every year. But no one should be _forced_ at gunpoint to help poor people. And that’s exactly what you’re saying; you believe people should be _forced_ to give. I believe that’s morally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/195 "2009-07-17T02:50:54Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > There’s this blog I read sometimes written by a pretty staunch libertarian. In one of his comments sections, someone asserted that “the market” would eventually pay for health care for the poor; since the demand would be there, **someone** would fill it with supply. Even in that libertarian blog, there were people commenting that it was a naive and probably untrue point of view, AND getting modded up for it. > > It makes me wonder: who exactly would find it profitable to fill that demand for health care for people who can’t afford it? How would it be filled, and why? To what extent? Why has it not happened already? If it’s because of “government regulation,” which ones, in particular? > > Of course, if you think that the current system just needs some changes to run infinitely better, I’d like to hear what they are. Some libertarians just turn to “the market” so they won’t have to offer better solutions; those solutions will “just happen.” So I’d be interested in hearing thoughts NOT along those lines. Maybe there’s not a problem in the first place. Poor people don’t drive Bugati Veyrons, should the government buy one for each poor person? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/196 "2009-07-17T02:52:24Z")
Nobody IS being forced at gunpoint to help poor people. As stated earlier, the IRS doesn’t pack heat. And I know “at gunpoint” is a rhetorical flourish, but it is a rhetorical flourish that makes you look like an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/197 "2009-07-17T02:53:00Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I am forced at gunpoint to pay for federal “services” that the federal government has no authority providing. So why in the world do you choose stay in such an unjust system? Surely the free market has brought forth a libertarian paradise somewhere; you are free to choose from hundreds of countries, and you choose this one that so unfairly oppresses you? How is your situation different from the individual who is free to choose any insurance company, or none at all? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/198 "2009-07-17T02:53:02Z")
Am I the only one visualizing **Crafter\_Man** ’s ideal society as the post-apocalyptic wasteland in _The Road Warrior/Mad Max 2_? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/199 "2009-07-17T02:53:17Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > If my experience with a wealthy right-wing opponent to “socialized medicine” is any indicator, I don’t think _any_ amount of reasoned argument will change **Rand Rovers** mind. > > One of my skills is computer support. I’ve had one particular client for nearly 30 years. A doctor, great guy and I consider him a good friend as well as a client. But he is a very conservative Republican Catholic and believes the polar opposite of pretty much everything I believe in. But we like debating the issues. > > When I first met him he was just out of residency, and rose in his profession to the point where he was the editor of the journal of his specialty and he built a business employing other doctors and staffing the departments of local hospitals. A solid, respectable small business employing roughly 25 people. > > Eventually those hospitals were bought by the huge health conglomerates and they destroyed his business that he had been building as a legacy for his family. So he shifted to teaching and lecturing on his specialty. > > In the meantime, he has had medical problems. Prostate cancer. But he found the best treatment centers with the best outcomes and it looks like he is doing OK. Enough to go back to doing something else he loves - on-field doctor for a professional sports team. And during a game he was injured by two of the players, breaking both legs. > > What did the sports team do? Why they fired him, of course. Only logical, as it was the only way to avoid paying for his treatment to repair his legs - the healing complicated by the radiation and chemo he was still undergoing for the prostate cancer. And his insurance company? They dropped him. He can’t get any more insurance, as he has this “pre-existing condition”. The cost of his medical treatments are now coming out of his kid’s college fund.. > > And you know what? I asked him a couple of weeks ago if he liked the proposed health care bill? > > _“I just don’t like socialized medicine.”_ Right. Not everyone is all “I want it, you have it, give it to me” like some people are. This guy apparently isn’t like that. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/200 "2009-07-17T02:53:48Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > News Flash: The society has decided that it will be. Deal with it or try to secede from society. As much as I might agree, the debate here seems to be what SHOULD be. On that, **Rand Rover** is getting pummeled. But as he says, he’s here to rant not to practice rhetorical logic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=11)