# Anything else you motherfuckers need? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231 "2009-07-16T16:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2001 "2009-08-03T21:51:57Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Well, I do work for a living and gladly support America’s great unwashed. Your story also isn’t quite interesting enough for me to follow along with the close reading you clearly believe you deserve. :rolleyes: OK, then, when you are next clueless about a post I’ll just ignore you. God forbid you actually, you know, read the posts in a thread before you pop off your ignorance. > [@](#): > > I doubt it. I suspect you keep repeating yourself because you belong to that common species of person who believes that repetition can transform something untrue into something true. Ah, a chance for me to do just that right away! > [@](#): > > Think about it this way. There is only so much demand for the labor of an uneducated, somewhat below average person. If it were possible for everyone in your shoes to have overcome whatever obstacles you seemed to have overcome, you’d all need taxpayer help because your fungible labor would be worth less. Think about it this way. Not all poor people are uneducated and below average. These days they also have far more available in the way of taxpayer funded help up than they did 35+ years ago. Explain why they are unable to get an education and a decent job. > [@](#): > > A year? Damn. Are you a doormat? Did this coworker shake up your sex life or something? :rolleyes: First I’m evil because I don’t help people out, and now I’m a doormat or there must have been some ulterior motive. > [@](#): > > Pfft. A decent illegal nanny around here doesn’t get less than $900 per week, tax free. More if you have more kids. And now we are talking illegal nannies. Did you make up that $900 as you seem to be making everything else about the illegals up? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2002 "2009-08-03T21:54:32Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > God forbid you actually, you know, read the posts in a thread before you pop off your ignorance. _Irony!_ ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2003 "2009-08-03T22:07:29Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > No, and I believe I’ve already made myself clear on that point. Then why tell me I’m not allowed to say anything about what poor or middle-class people ought to be able to do. Particularly given that I haven’t lived at the middle-class level for all of my life, or even half. > [@](#): > > “Handouts,” as you like to call them, are not the disincentive. The disincentive is the fact that support typically ceases as soon as the recipient starts working, even if the person’s earnings and benefits are _less_ than what they were receiving in public aid. Punishing people for moving from welfare to low-wage jobs -\* that’s\* a disincentive. Those handouts mean that they should not be moving into a low wage job, if they had used them to get an education. Even so, why is it “punishing” people to quit giving them a handout once they start making that amount or more on their own? (Remember, everyone here is trying to prove that welfare pays far less than a living wage) Do they have no pride and therefore have no problem taking other folks money without earning it? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2004 "2009-08-03T22:15:46Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > When I was working, we did pay out _more_ in payroll taxes than my whole gross salary. So, not only do handouts cause disincentives for poor people to work, so do the way the tax laws work do the same to the middle class. Really? Was your family’s take home income higher or lower when you were working than it is with just your husband’s income? I’ve never understood that argument. If I improve myself and make more money, even though I pay more in taxes, I still take home more money. Why do you think people will refuse more spendable money just because they will also pay more in taxes? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2005 "2009-08-03T22:23:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Those handouts mean that they should not be moving into a low wage job, if they had used them to get an education. How, exactly, does someone use food aid, housing assistance, or medical care to fund an education? Further, having an education does not guarantee immediate access to a well-paying job. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Even so, why is it “punishing” people to quit giving them a handout once they start making that amount or more on their own? You didn’t read, did you? Many forms of assistance are cut off as soon as the recipient is employed, even if it’s _less than_ what they were receiving in aid. > [@curlcoat](#): > > (Remember, everyone here is trying to prove that welfare pays far less than a living wage) It does. So do many, many low-wage jobs. The federal minimum wage is _not_ a living wage. > [@curlcoat](#): > > Do they have no pride and therefore have no problem taking other folks money without earning it? You know, there’s a saying: “A man who refuses to lend a hand to someone in need is hard-hearted. A man in need who refuses that hand is an idiot.” If you are in need, and aid is available, you are a fool not to take it. Self-righteousness masqerading as pride won’t feed your kids. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2006 "2009-08-03T22:36:17Z")
I suppose what we’re really seeing here is two different approaches to the very notions of assistance and independence. Some people, like **curlcoat** , really seem to think that they are diminished if they seek or accept help from others. These people claim that someone who accepts assistance has no “pride” in themselves, and they often cite their own “pride” to justify their refusal to take advantage of welfare, loans, and so forth. Other people - myself included - have no problem utilizing all of the resources that are available to them. Perhaps these people are simply slackers and sponges, but in my experience, they understand that utilizing these resources in the short term can make them more independent in the long term. My parents paid the bulk of my undergraduate college expenses, and I went to grad school on a scholarship. I don’t believe that this makes me less virtuous than someone who didn’t have either of those. Instead, I am thankful to my parents and my school for their support, because I’m not so full of myself as to believe that I would have done just as well without it. Further, because I understand this, I give generously so that other people - who don’t have my parents - can have the same opportunities as I did. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2007 "2009-08-03T23:18:01Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > :rolleyes: > > OK, then, when you are next clueless about a post I’ll just ignore you. God forbid you actually, you know, read the posts in a thread before you pop off your ignorance. You seem to have read all of the posts in the thread, yet that has not stopped you from running your ignorant mouth. > [@](#): > > Think about it this way. Not all poor people are uneducated and below average. These days they also have far more available in the way of taxpayer funded help up than they did 35+ years ago. Explain why they are unable to get an education and a decent job. Global competition. 35 years ago, poor people in the US were competing for unskilled jobs against other poor people in the US. This is the same reason that the wage gap between skilled and unskilled labor in the US alone has widened dramatically. Face it, **curlcoat**. You were lucky to have clawed your way out of poverty 35 years ago when it was much easier. Now, you’d probably be on public assistance. > [@](#): > > And now we are talking illegal nannies. Did you make up that $900 as you seem to be making everything else about the illegals up? Nah, it’s how much my colleague pays his nanny. I can take an estimate for an illegal maid, though. It costs me $100 or so to have my apartment cleaned. Two ladies teaming up could easily clean three apartments or more per day. Three apartments per day, seven days per week, nets $55k per year. At 80% utilization, that’s $44k per year for each cleaning lady. This is damn near the US median income, and approaches the median for my city if not my borough. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2008 "2009-08-03T23:33:09Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Pfft. A decent illegal nanny around here doesn’t get less than $900 per week, tax free. More if you have more kids. I thought that said “More if you have kids.” I was intrigued. I know quite a few ostensible adults who need a nanny, illegal or otherwise. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2009 "2009-08-04T00:33:34Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’ve never understood that argument. If I improve myself and make more money, even though I pay more in taxes, I still take home more money. Why do you think people will refuse more spendable money just because they will also pay more in taxes? Because as a petulant little jackass that’s exactly what they’d do? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2010 "2009-08-04T03:20:53Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Really? Was your family’s take home income higher or lower when you were working than it is with just your husband’s income? About the same as it is now. > [@](#): > > I’ve never understood that argument. If I improve myself and make more money, even though I pay more in taxes, I still take home more money. Why do you think people will refuse more spendable money just because they will also pay more in taxes? At some point, there is a line you cross over barely that puts you in a higher tax bracket, so you end up bringing home less than before you got the raise. Or, if there is a big difference between what you make and what your spouse makes, you may notice it then - that it is actually cheaper if the one making the less money doesn’t work. Maybe it doesn’t happen to singles - we are married filing joint so that may make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2011 "2009-08-04T03:39:36Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > At some point, there is a line you cross over barely that puts you in a higher tax bracket, so you end up bringing home less than before you got the raise. Or, if there is a big difference between what you make and what your spouse makes, you may notice it then - that it is actually cheaper if the one making the less money doesn’t work. I’d really like to know how this is possible. I admit to being no tax expert, but if my understanding of the way tax brackets work is correct, it is literally impossible to add more money to your paycheck and to actually take home less money after tax. For this to happen, the tax on the extra income would have to be greater than 100 percent. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2012 "2009-08-04T03:43:16Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > How, exactly, does someone use food aid, housing assistance, or medical care to fund an education? Further, having an education does not guarantee immediate access to a well-paying job. There are a lot of jobs between low paying and well paying. As for the education, K-12 is free, you get a couple of crappy jobs, room with a bunch of friends or live at home and then if you didn’t get a scholarship you get a college loan, or you pay to go to trade school. In other words, you work your way up. You put off expensive things like cars, children, house buying until you are settled in a good job and have a cushion. Far too many people don’t seem to understand the idea of actually being prepared for life instead of just blithering into it. > [@](#): > > You didn’t read, did you? Many forms of assistance are cut off as soon as the recipient is employed, even if it’s _less than_ what they were receiving in aid. “Many” forms of assistance are not all of them. Here in California, we pay for MediCal and DentiCal even if you are working, as well as whatever aid to dependent children is called these days. Food stamps are still issued if you are working as long as you are under the income level. You can be eligible for subsidized housing. Etc. > [@](#): > > It does. So do many, many low-wage jobs. The federal minimum wage is _not_ a living wage. Apparently, it is since there are tons of folks living on welfare. > [@](#): > > You know, there’s a saying: “A man who refuses to lend a hand to someone in need is hard-hearted. A man in need who refuses that hand is an idiot.” If you are in need, and aid is available, you are a fool not to take it. Self-righteousness masqerading as pride won’t feed your kids. Yeah, it always comes back to the children doesn’t it? Does it occur to you if these folks hadn’t had those kids, they might not be in the hole that they are in? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2013 "2009-08-04T03:52:07Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > You seem to have read all of the posts in the thread, yet that has not stopped you from running your ignorant mouth. And yet, you haven’t been able to prove anything I say as ignorant. > [@](#): > > Global competition. 35 years ago, poor people in the US were competing for unskilled jobs against other poor people in the US. This is the same reason that the wage gap between skilled and unskilled labor in the US alone has widened dramatically. Uh huh. So, there are no jobs at McDonalds, no receptionists, no mail clerk jobs left in the US? All of these illegals that come across our border barely able to speak English are finding jobs - how is that working? > [@](#): > > Face it, **curlcoat**. You were lucky to have clawed your way out of poverty 35 years ago when it was much easier. Now, you’d probably be on public assistance. I could have easily have been on it back then. I chose not to. > [@](#): > > Nah, it’s how much my colleague pays his nanny. Ah. So that is what all illegal nannies make then, eh? > [@](#): > > I can take an estimate for an illegal maid, though. It costs me $100 or so to have my apartment cleaned. Two ladies teaming up could easily clean three apartments or more per day. Three apartments per day, seven days per week, nets $55k per year. At 80% utilization, that’s $44k per year for each cleaning lady. This is damn near the US median income, and approaches the median for my city if not my borough. You are having your apartment cleaned by illegals? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2014 "2009-08-04T04:05:59Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’d really like to know how this is possible. > > I admit to being no tax expert, but if my understanding of the way tax brackets work is correct, it is literally impossible to add more money to your paycheck and to actually take home less money after tax. For this to happen, the tax on the extra income would have to be greater than 100 percent. I am no tax expert either, but one thing that is different about what you say as opposed to my situation is it isn’t one paycheck that the IRS is considering, it is two. They aren’t looking at my income or his income, they are looking at the total income for the household. And the reality is that we together paid out more in payroll taxes than I was earning, when I was working. And at this time, we are slightly more able to pay our bills than when I was working, even tho my “income” is far less. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2015 "2009-08-04T15:10:39Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > In other words, you work your way up. You put off expensive things like cars, children, house buying until you are settled in a good job and have a cushion. [snip] Yeah, it always comes back to the children doesn’t it? Does it occur to you if these folks hadn’t had those kids, they might not be in the hole that they are in? 1.) The longer a woman waits to have a child, the greater the risk of genetic defects, including serious problems like Down Syndrome. Waiting until you have a giant cushion to have a child can be seen as more irresponsible, not less. 2.) By your rules, only the upper-middle-class and higher should be allowed to reproduce. Maybe we should just sterilize the poor! That would help get rid of those confusing African-Americans, too–no more history for curlcoat to have to learn. > [@curlcoat](#): > > And the reality is that we together paid out more in payroll taxes than I was earning, when I was working. Is anyone else delighted that \*\*curlcoat \*\*continues to specifically bitch about \*\*payroll \*\*taxes? I.e., the taxes she paid that she thinks magically became the Social Security payments she continues to take advantage of even though her husband has a six-figure income? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2016 "2009-08-04T15:16:37Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yeah, it always comes back to the children doesn’t it? Does it occur to you if these folks hadn’t had those kids, they might not be in the hole that they are in? Yeah. But you know, we don’t all have the benefit of your 20/20 hindsight - sometimes the bad stuff happens _despite_ all the planning, after the kids are born. And what, exactly, do you think people with kids should do in that situation? Shoot them? Sell them at auction? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2017 "2009-08-04T15:49:10Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > And what, exactly, do you think people with kids should do in that situation? Shoot them? Sell them at auction? Ew, no one wants to buy defective kids. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2018 "2009-08-04T16:11:03Z")
“Well, tell you what, I’ll give you a guarantee, this one doesn’t do like advertised, I’ll give you another one absolutely free!” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2019 "2009-08-04T16:25:29Z")
Just wanted to chime in and say that this thread has one of my all-time favorite thread titles. Been meaning to do that for a while now. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/2020 "2009-08-04T16:46:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > > [@curlcoat](#): > > > > At some point, there is a line you cross over barely that puts you in a higher tax bracket, so you end up bringing home less than before you got the raise. Or, if there is a big difference between what you make and what your spouse makes, you may notice it then - that it is actually cheaper if the one making the less money doesn’t work. > > I’d really like to know how this is possible. > > I admit to being no tax expert, but if my understanding of the way tax brackets work is correct, it is literally impossible to add more money to your paycheck and to actually take home less money after tax. For this to happen, the tax on the extra income would have to be greater than 100 percent. Nah, it’s a combination of a vague memory of pre-1986 tax laws and a misunderstanding of the way computerized withholding works. Years ago, tax brackets were not based on marginal increments and it was possibler to get a raise that resulted in a tax hike that exceeded the raise. That has not been true in over 20 years. What does happen is that for most income, (which tend to be based on salaries or wages from corporations, these days), taxes are withheld by the payroll department or ADP or some similar outfit where the calculations of payment and withholding are done by computer. For each paycheck, the tax is calculated based on a presumed annual income. If you get a raise part way throgh the year, the tax on the next paycheck is calculated as though you would have gotten that amount of money all year and the tax is correspondingly higher. This can make one’s take home pay drop if one does not adjust the amount deducted with a new W-4 to indicate that the raise is only good for part of the year, (which many people do not because it is a hassle and because, in fact, you are going to get the overpayments back when you file your annual taxes). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=102)