# Anything else you motherfuckers need? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231 "2009-07-16T16:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/461 "2009-07-18T22:51:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The irony, of course, would be delicious, but I sense it might be lost on you- and hockey is fucking boring. Ah, you’ve just never seen the Penguins play! 😉 Question for **Crafter\_Man** and **Rand Rover** : what happens when health insurance companies REFUSE to cover certain individuals due to “pre-existing conditions.” Then, not only do they not have “socialist health care” :rolleyes:, but they’re not even able to purchase it either. ---
**Author:** ![Ludy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Ludy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludy)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/462 "2009-07-18T22:59:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Our healthcare system is the envy of the world. As a non-American who has no dog in this fight, that statement is laughable. Everybody that I have discussed heath care with is baffled at your system, and why people would defend it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/463 "2009-07-18T23:04:56Z")
> [@Ludy](#): > > As a non-American who has no dog in this fight, that statement is laughable. Everybody that I have discussed heath care with is baffled at your system, and why people would defend it. Yet one the people get sick they want to come here. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/464 "2009-07-18T23:08:24Z")
> [@interface2x](#): > > Cite? > > All figures that I’m seeing from [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate) on unemployment doesn’t appear to bear that out. Is there some other statistic that measures laziness and complacence that I’m not seeing? I’m not sure what you think that chart shows. What I’m talking about is common sense. If someone feeds you, you can wait to be fed. If not, you have to work to get the food yourself. And when people have to work to get their food, they try to find easier or better ways to get it. Necessity, is indeed, the mother of invention. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/465 "2009-07-18T23:13:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Our healthcare system is the envy of the world. It is too expensive, yes. But what is in place now can be altered and changed in many ways. No one is arguing for keeping exactly what we have. So, you can stop with that straw man. > > No, they want people to pull their own weight. I’m not a libertarian, but think about it this way: wouldn’t it be great if everyone provided for themselves (aside from military, etc.). Now, while that may be unrealistic in total, how about if 99% did? Theoretically, it would be great, right? Well to do that, you have to not provide a ton of stuff to people. Once you do, they get complacent, lazy. And you’ve robbed the country of what could be an amazingly powerful engine—where virtually everyone works and contributes. > > No, the point is that we are each entitled to the fruits of our own mind and body. Everyone is equal. The idea is to spur great people to do great things. And a complacent population is not as likely to strive. None of this addresses the point I made upthread: I am a productive member of society, who has held down a job (and had insurance) for 20+ years. Yet if I were to get a serious illness, I would not be able to afford treatment. Tell me again how the problem is that I’m not pulling my own weight. As for our healthcare system being the envy of the world, I have serious doubts. Nor have I heard of citizens from other countries coming here for treatment, unless you mean wealthy people coming to see specialists. I _have_ heard of many of our own citizens crossing the border into Mexico and Canada to get affordable meds, though. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/466 "2009-07-18T23:20:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Question for **Crafter\_Man** and **Rand Rover** : what happens when health insurance companies REFUSE to cover certain individuals due to “pre-existing conditions.” Then, not only do they not have “socialist health care” :rolleyes:, but they’re not even able to purchase it either. Who cares? Why is that my problem? Why is it the government’s problem? Are we not responsibile for ourselves? Whatever happened to personal responsibility and individual liberty? What moral right do I have to force someone else to give me their property for my own personal safety, health & comfort? Am I entitled to a portion of someone else’s property? If someone has more than me, do I have a moral right take it? Am I entitled to some of your property? If so, how much? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/467 "2009-07-18T23:20:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yet one the people get sick they want to come here. Go figure. You need better or more recent sources of information. > **[Lower costs lure U.S. patients abroad for treatment - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27/india.medical.travel/index.html)** > > "I was a walking time bomb. I knew I had to get on that plane if I wanted to be around to see my grandkids." > [@](#): > > Sandra Giustina is a 61-year-old uninsured American. For three years she saved her money in hopes of affording heart surgery to correct her atrial fibrillation. “They [U.S. hospitals] told me it would be about $175,000, and there was just no way could I come up with that,” Giustina said. > > So, with a little digging online, she found several high quality hospitals vying for her business, at a fraction of the U.S. cost. Within a month, she was on a plane from her home in Las Vegas, Nevada, to New Delhi, India. Surgeons at Max Hospital fixed her heart for “under $10,000 total, including travel.” > > Giustina is just one of millions around the world journeying outside their native land for medical treatment, a phenomenon known as “medical tourism.” Experts say the trend in global health care has just begun. Next year alone, an estimated 6 million Americans will travel abroad for surgery, according to a 2008 Deloitte study. “Medical care in countries such as India, Thailand and Singapore can cost as little as 10 percent of the cost of comparable care in the United States,” the report found. But of course the well-to-do come to the US, but somehow, I think some news can make some heads explode :p: [http://www.globalmedicaltourism.net/more-news/az-hospital-helps-mexican-moms-have-babies-with-us-citizenship.html](http://www.globalmedicaltourism.net/more-news/az-hospital-helps-mexican-moms-have-babies-with-us-citizenship.html) > [@](#): > > But medical tourism can also involve patients coming into the U.S.–and in the case of expectant moms, can confer benefits which few medical tourist get. Of late, a growing number of well-to-do Mexican mothers have been coming to the U.S. to have their babies, who automatically get American citizenship since they were born on U.S. soil. One hospital that is capitalizing on this trend is Tucson, AZ-based Tucson Medical Center, which is marketing a “birth package” offering cutting edge technology, cozy settings and the chance for mothers to grant their babies American citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/468 "2009-07-18T23:20:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And we had insurance. By god, we had it _good_. Uh, what? Let’s review: Obama wants the US federal government to provide health insurance to poor people, paid for by a tax on not-so-poor people (which includes me). I start a thread ranting about this. You share a story about having health insurance and life still being shitty. How is your story relevant to anything? Please save your irrelevant stories and your attempts at giving me moral lessons for someone who cares. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/469 "2009-07-18T23:25:50Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Who cares? > > Why is that my problem? > > Why is it the government’s problem? > > Are we not responsibile for ourselves? > > Whatever happened to personal responsibility and individual liberty? > > What moral right do I have to force someone else to give me their property for my own personal safety, health & comfort? Am I entitled to a portion of someone else’s property? If someone has more than me, do I have a moral right take it? > > Am I entitled to some of your property? If so, how much? As mentioned before, you are really against the individual freedom of the American worker. The moral right is to reject the FUD from insurance companies and corporations that want to take us back to medieval times. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/470 "2009-07-18T23:29:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because you can’t run a society well with a population that has the libertarian attitude that you can take from it and never give back ? That’s not the libertarian attitude. The libertarian attitude is that relationships between people should be based on mutual respect and fair exchanges of value, not on force and violence. I guess when you see a rich guy you think he has just taken from society and not given anything back. Well how do you think he got that money in the first place? Unless he stole it or inherited it, then he got it through providing stuff to people that they were willing to pay for. That is how he gave back to society. Therefore, your initial impression of this person as someone who has not given back to society was incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/471 "2009-07-18T23:31:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Uh, what? > > Let’s review: > > Obama wants the US federal government to provide health insurance to poor people, paid for by a tax on not-so-poor people (which includes me). I start a thread ranting about this. You share a story about having health insurance and life still being shitty. How is your story relevant to anything? > > Please save your irrelevant stories and your attempts at giving me moral lessons for someone who cares. Thanks. That is ok, it is clear that very few do care about your views. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/472 "2009-07-18T23:33:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is ok, it is clear that very few do care about your views. English, motherfucker. Do you speak it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/473 "2009-07-18T23:36:45Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > None of this addresses the point I made upthread: I am a productive member of society, who has held down a job (and had insurance) for 20+ years. Yet if I were to get a serious illness, I would not be able to afford treatment. Tell me again how the problem is that I’m not pulling my own weight. Two discussions are getting conflated, although they are related. One has to do with a macro view of a libertarian society. The other has to do with healthcare specifically. My point was that everyone pulling their own weight would create a powerful engine for a country—the most powerful, I would say. That said, I agree that the healthcare system is screwed up and needs fixing bad. But the bad part is the cost. And I’m all for looking at all sorts of ways to do that. UHC should be considered, I think, but as an absolute last resort. For instance, lets make health insurance more portable. And let’s remove barriers that prevent companies from competing across state lines. Let’s work to reduce insurance costs to doctors, which they just pass on to us anyway. I pay a ton in insurance, and my coverage is just so-so. I’m going through the process now of trying to switch. It is the biggest pain in the ass possible. > [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > As for our healthcare system being the envy of the world, I have serious doubts. Nor have I heard of citizens from other countries coming here for treatment, unless you mean wealthy people coming to see specialists. I _have_ heard of many of our own citizens crossing the border into Mexico and Canada to get affordable meds, though. Meds, yes. For reasons I don’t really understand, prescription drugs are very high here. I think it’s because there seems to be a need to keep them low across the world, so people can afford them. And we have to make it financially rewarding for drug companies to go through the huge expense of developing and testing new drugs. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/474 "2009-07-18T23:38:20Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Who cares? > > Why is that my problem? > > Why is it the government’s problem? > > Are we not responsibile for ourselves? > > Whatever happened to personal responsibility and individual liberty? > > What moral right do I have to force someone else to give me their property for my own personal safety, health & comfort? Am I entitled to a portion of someone else’s property? If someone has more than me, do I have a moral right take it? > > Am I entitled to some of your property? If so, how much? Obviously, you are. You’re entitled to whatever federal (and state, if we happened to both be residents of the same one) taxes I pay that our elected representatives decide is necessary for the maintenance of our society. This is pretty basic shit. Are you against paying taxes for the military? If not, why? Shouldn’t you be responsible for your own defense? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/475 "2009-07-18T23:38:41Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Uh, what? > > Let’s review: > > Obama wants the US federal government to provide health insurance to poor people, paid for by a tax on not-so-poor people (which includes me). I start a thread ranting about this. You share a story about having health insurance and life still being shitty. How is your story relevant to anything? > > Please save your irrelevant stories and your attempts at giving me moral lessons for someone who cares. Thanks. On further reflection, I think I see your point. You were saying “Look how bad we had it with insurance, imagine how bad someone’s life is without health insurance.” But that is irrelevant. The US federal government is not in the business of guaranteeing that nothing bad happens to anyone anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/476 "2009-07-18T23:39:17Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Who cares? > > Why is that my problem? > > Why is it the government’s problem? > > Are we not responsibile for ourselves? > > Whatever happened to personal responsibility and individual liberty? > > What moral right do I have to force someone else to give me their property for my own personal safety, health & comfort? Am I entitled to a portion of someone else’s property? If someone has more than me, do I have a moral right take it? > > Am I entitled to some of your property? If so, how much? Then don’t sit there and tell us everyone IS capable of obtaining health care. Because that’s bullshit. Someone can work hard and be responsible – and yet, if they have a condition like say, diabetes, they’re not going to BE ABLE to purchase health care. How does that equal not being responsible for oneself? Unless you’re implying that someone, somehow, deserves to be sick. And YOU are entitled to eat my shit. A whole bowlful. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/477 "2009-07-18T23:41:36Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Someone can work hard and be responsible – and yet, if they have a condition like say, diabetes, they’re not going to BE ABLE to purchase health care. What? If they walk into a doctor’s office to obtain health care, the doctor will refuse to provide it to them? Oh, because you are stupid as fuck, you probably meant “health insurance” instead of “healthcare.” Turns out you are still wrong–there are insurance programs for people with pre-existing conditions; it’s not the case that it simply can’t be purchased. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/478 "2009-07-18T23:42:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > English, motherfucker. Do you speak it? I explained before that my grammar is a crime against nature, but that is why I do not teach English. I do know about history and how Health care works in other countries as I came from El Salvador. So, I admit I have problems with English, I will always prefer to admit that I have problems with English rather than to admit that one is not a human being, like you are demonstrating in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/479 "2009-07-18T23:43:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Turns out you are still wrong–there are insurance programs for people with pre-existing conditions; it’s not the case that it simply can’t be purchased. You are the one who is wrong. I have been trying for a year to purchase insurance for one of my kids. I have not found any insurance company willing to sell me insurance for this kid. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/480 "2009-07-18T23:45:48Z")
> [@woodstockbirdybird](#): > > Are you against paying taxes for the military? If not, why? Shouldn’t you be responsible for your own defense? Does the constitution explicitly give authority for the federal government to oversee the defense of our country? Yes. Does the constitution explicitly give authority for the federal government to have \*anything \*to do with healthcare? No. Does military spending provide for the general welfare of all people equally, regardless of their individual circumstances and individual decisions? Yes. Does healthcare spending provide for the general welfare of all people equally, regardless of their individual circumstances and individual decisions? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=25)