# Anything else you motherfuckers need? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 16, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231 "2009-07-16T16:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1521 "2009-07-25T04:44:57Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Then society’s values are fucked up. I would argue that they are much more _important_ to our survival than a tax lawyer. As a whole, they probably are. But society values my services more than the services of any one of them individually. Probably because fewer people have the ability to do what I do, and there are high barriers to entry (i.e., you have to be really smart, you have to go to school for a long time, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1522 "2009-07-25T04:45:36Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Tell that to OB-GYNs and midwives. Are you serious? OB\_GYNs are medical doctors. They have the education, certification, and ongoing training to practice that branch of medicine. “Birth professional” is a made-up, PC term. Get bent. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1523 "2009-07-25T04:45:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Using that metric, the people really giving value to society are the drug kingpins. So Al Capone was the ultimate philanthropist? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1524 "2009-07-25T04:46:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The fact that I get paid more than any one firefighter, police officer, teacher, sanitation worker, or nurse does indeed show that society values what I do more than what any one of them does. > > If you disagree, I have a pencil to sell you for $300. No. It means that a tiny, tiny portion of society – people who have enough money to need your services – find you worth a relatively small amount of money so that they will save a larger amount of money. The rest of “society” does not give a shit about you and will never need nor care for your services. Are the rich the only society you care about? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1525 "2009-07-25T04:46:12Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > I know I probably seem sort of obsessed with this multi-quote thing, but honestly, we have at least two posters in here, one of whom is supposedly a high-value-to-society tax lawyer who has successfully navigated a lot of higher education, and one of whom has had it explained to her slowly twice now, who can’t seem to figure out how it works. It’s not hard, guys! I just got it to work basically by accident! Just because I don’t use it doesn’t mean I don’t understand how to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1526 "2009-07-25T04:48:57Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > But on balance I’d say the truck driver provides more value to society. S/he is part of the economic base of the country. Without the long-haul truck driver, you do not have cream in your coffee, coffee in your mug, a mug in your cupboard, a cupboard in your kitchen, a kitchen in your house, a house on your street. So maybe the trucker is a bad example. You are conflating the concepts of “a trucker” and “all truckers.” ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1527 "2009-07-25T04:49:48Z")
Riiiiight. Well, I will admit that without the gigantic long clusters of consecutive posts that **Rand** and **curlcoat** insist on making, these threads would never get anywhere near 20 or 30 or 40 pages long, and we ARE going for the length record here, after all. (Er, aren’t we?) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1528 "2009-07-25T04:50:47Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > Are the rich the only society you care about? No – HIMSELF seems to be the only society he cares about. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1529 "2009-07-25T04:51:54Z")
> [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](#): > > No. > > It means that a tiny, tiny portion of society – people who have enough money to need your services – find you worth a relatively small amount of money so that they will save a larger amount of money. The rest of “society” does not give a shit about you and will never need nor care for your services. > > Are the rich the only society you care about? I’m using the word “value” in its ordinary meaning, which is what someone is willing to pay for something. You seem to be using it in the sense of “moral worth” or something like that, which is just made-up BS. I mean the only measure of value that actually exists and is measurable in society, which is money. Anyone who wants to argue with me by using the “moral worth” meaning of “value” can just save it, because I won’t debate meaningless concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1530 "2009-07-25T04:51:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Remember, though, that tax units include families with children, which on below median income scales are much more likely to pay no taxes. > That’s true, but I think you’re over-estimating that group. I doubt if there have been over 50 repeat requests, if that many, out of probably 3000 Members and Charter Members. Most who have requested have been a one-time situation. > > In my recollection, which is probably as weevily as yours. 😉 > > Honestly, that doesn’t disprove your point with logic. I just don’t see how you can support your point with logic. But if the starting point, i.e. that 47% don’t pay taxes, is true, you’d have to admit that the percentage is even higher on the SDMB, right? It seems obvious to me. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1531 "2009-07-25T04:52:54Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So Al Capone was the ultimate philanthropist? As I recall from a biography, Capone was deeply disturbed by his income tax evason trial because a large part of his “income” went straight to other people. I’m not sure that I’d call paying a retainer to Jack McGurn philanthropy, but still . . . ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1532 "2009-07-25T04:53:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No – HIMSELF seems to be the only society he cares about. And . . . we’re back to the whole point of what I originally posted on this topic. You think I’m only benefitting myself by making so much money, but you have it backwards, I’m actually providing lots of value, which is proved by all the money I make. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1533 "2009-07-25T04:55:49Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The fact that I get paid more than any one firefighter, police officer, teacher, sanitation worker, or nurse does indeed show that society values what I do more than what any one of them does. > > If you disagree, I have a pencil to sell you for $300. No, it does not mean that society as a whole values what you do more than what I do. It means rich people value what you do more. There are a fuck of a lot more people who don’t value what you do at all and have absolutely no use for you, and they comprise the majority of society. As Carol Stream likes to point out, 47% of Americans don’t even pay federal taxes, and to them, you have no value-- you’re just a rich asshole helping other rich assholes cheat the government. Or something to that effect. See, society isn’t a monolithic entity that designates “value” as you claim. You are taking one measure, your salary, and claiming that number is the absolute value that the entire society places on you, and because it’s a higher number than what a firefighter gets paid, that society, all 400 million of us, values you more. All it measures is how much the sector of society that can afford your services values your services. It says nothing about what you contribute to society as a whole, nor about your value as a human being, beyond what you do in your job. If you disagree, I can tell you where to shove that pencil. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1534 "2009-07-25T04:56:08Z")
I am making up a list of things that are “made-up BS” according to **Carol Stream** and **Rand Rover** , Arbiters of Truth. So far I have: 1. birth professionals 2. Any meanings of “value,” including ones that appear in the dictionary, that have anything to do with anything except for money. The crazy just doesn’t stop in this thread, I’ll tell you what. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1535 "2009-07-25T04:57:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m using the word “value” in its ordinary meaning, which is what someone is willing to pay for something. You seem to be using it in the sense of “moral worth” or something like that, which is just made-up BS. I mean the only measure of value that actually exists and is measurable in society, which is money. > > Anyone who wants to argue with me by using the “moral worth” meaning of “value” can just save it, because I won’t debate meaningless concepts. Perhaps then you should the word “priority”, as it seems that is what you’re trying to say. And I don’t believe people are using the concept of “moral worth” so much of what is more “important”, in a sense of what we need for our day to day living. I would probably need a doctor more often than I would a tax lawyer. (Let’s use the example of a doctor, if you want to go with a profession that also requires a lot of schooling, and tends to pay quite a bit) > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And . . . we’re back to the whole point of what I originally posted on this topic. You think I’m being selfish by making so much money, but you have it backwards, I’m actually providing lots of value, which is proved by all the money I make. No, I think you’re selfish because you seem to think that money is all that matters. Money is not the soul way to measure a man’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1536 "2009-07-25T04:59:27Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > No, it does not mean that society as a whole values what you do more than what I do. It means rich people value what you do more. There are a fuck of a lot more people who don’t value what you do at all and have absolutely no use for you, and they comprise the majority of society. As Carol Stream likes to point out, 47% of Americans don’t even pay federal taxes, and to them, you have no value-- you’re just a rich asshole helping other rich assholes cheat the government. Or something to that effect. > > See, society isn’t a monolithic entity that designates “value” as you claim. You are taking one measure, your salary, and claiming that number is the absolute value that the entire society places on you, and because it’s a higher number than what a firefighter gets paid, that society, all 400 million of us, values you more. All it measures is how much the sector of society that can afford your services values your services. It says nothing about what you contribute to society as a whole, nor about your value as a human being, beyond what you do in your job. > > If you disagree, I can tell you where to shove that pencil. I haven’t said anything about my “value as a human being” whatever that means. I’ve only been talking about the value I provide to society. Anyway, I won’t repeat myself. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1537 "2009-07-25T05:00:09Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You are conflating the concepts of “a trucker” and “all truckers.” Versus a whole band? (I dunno, is Radiohead one guy? I seem to remember someone called Beck, not sure if that’s the same guy, don’t feel like looking it up) Just one trucker, then. 52 linear feet of truck, fourteen days working and two days at home, and he’s the difference between whether or not your supermarket has fresh food. Or he’s the difference between whether or not your hospital has insulin. Just one guy, just one day, just one shipment that doesn’t show up could ruin a lot of days and cost a lot of people lots of money, which is the important thing, isn’t it? Great artists are important only if you want to have a civilization elevated from drudgery, if you are interested in lifting minds and spirits. Truck drivers are important only if you live in non self-sufficient communities. Oh, and a point from someone I was talking to about this: lawyers are disproportionately paid at least in part because politicians are, by and large, current or former lawyers. Surprisingly, the people in power can slant things as they like. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1538 "2009-07-25T05:00:34Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > No, I think you’re selfish because you seem to think that money is all that matters. Money is not the soul way to measure a man’s worth. When have I ever said anything that contradicts this? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1539 "2009-07-25T05:01:23Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m using the word “value” in its ordinary meaning, which is what someone is willing to pay for something. You seem to be using it in the sense of “moral worth” or something like that, which is just made-up BS. I mean the only measure of value that actually exists and is measurable in society, which is money. > > Anyone who wants to argue with me by using the “moral worth” meaning of “value” can just save it, because I won’t debate meaningless concepts. How much does your wife cost? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2009, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231/1540 "2009-07-25T05:02:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I haven’t said anything about my “value as a human being” whatever that means. I’ve only been talking about the value I provide to society. Anyway, I won’t repeat myself. Explain the difference between your value as a human being and your value to society. See if you can do it without resorting to your salary as the final word on the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=76) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-else-you-motherfuckers-need/503231.md?page=78)