If the founding fathers were alive today, they’d either say different things or they’d be utter asses.
Well, there’s the authority to tax and spend for the general welfare. Are you prepared to make an argument that “national health” and “general welfare” are definitely not related?
In my opinion it’s a gross abuse of the general welfare clause. James Madison and Alexander Hamilton wrote about it, and basically said the federal government was limited to the powers enumerated in the constitution. Of course, their comments are not law, but I think we should abide by the spirit of them.
Why did you type this response. Do you deny that what you were responding to expressed the mindset of the founders? It seems rather inarguable that that is the case. Or are you of the mind that because they didn’t immediately snap into an existence that 100% meshed with the philosophical underpinnings of the country that everything they said and thought should be discounted?
Something else?
Some quotes for ya:
“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” - James Madison in a letter to James Robertson
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one.” - James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” - Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Albert Gallatin
“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83
Again, I know these aren’t “law”…
Possibly that some schmuck on the internet shouldn’t be posting as if he has a 100% understanding of the founding fathers and their mindset. Possibly that the founding fathers were complex individuals whose motives/ideals/whatnots are not easily pigeonholed and are also not simply something to be waved about as if the mere mention of the super hero group of which they are all members is the key to victory.
At least that’s what I think the founding fathers would have wanted, but I could be thinking of the Green Lantern Corps. They’re so easily confused.
I understand John Adams was often mistaken for a Guardian of Oa…
I could see it if there was a specific belief he was talking about, but here’s the quote:
Do you really think that there is not agreement that the founding fathers “envisioned a country rooted in individual liberty and freedom”? That seems to be a given to me. If you don’t think so, please explain why not.
Well, also that they were men of their time and that time isn’t now. If they were alive now, they’d likely say very different things.
If someone is going to try to claim a special philosophical kinship with them, they have to take the bad with the good.
I don’t disagree with the sentiment at all. I simply think it’s a bit stupid to say that the founding fathers would’ve been against UHC “because they envisioned a country rooted in individual liberty and freedom.” May as well say that the american flag stands for liberty for all which is why I shouldn’t have to wear a seatbelt.
I contend that the Framers believed we should have a limited government, and that the general welfare clause does not mean the government can do anything it wants. For brevity’s sake I provided a few quotes above; I am not about to post thousands of pages from the FP’s. Can you at least provide a few quotes from the Framers or our Founding Fathers where they stated the Constitution allows for the federal government to do anything it wants? If not, then I must assume they wanted a limited government.
I contend that as you’ve not met the framers that whatever you say the framers would’ve wanted means fuckall as it’s entirely your opinion. You can throw up as many quotes from the founding fathers as google will cough up, but unless they say “All men are created equal, and UHC is a bunch of crap” you’ve done no more than to post your own opinion.
Well, I’m torn on that. On the one hand, I do believe that the founding fathers would have bristled at something like UHC or anything else as socialistic. I think it’s hard to argue otherwise. But that was them in their era. The degree to which we are able to, or should, depart from those beliefs is the question. And where we have the latitude.
Crafter_Man, can you show me the post on this thread where someone said the government should be able to do anything it wants?
Oooh, snap! 
I have no idea if they would have liked the idea of UHC. But I am thoroughly confident that they would question if the federal government has the authority to have *anything *to do with healthcare. Based on what I’ve read I can envision them saying, “UHC seems like a cool idea, but unfortunately the constitution does not give the federal government the authority to do it. But there’s nothing stopping the states from doing it on their own.”
Exactly. Our society is orders of magnitude different from the one the framers/founding fathers/old dudes lived in so speculating on what they would’ve thought is entirely pointless and will only end in dueling interpretations of quotes. I mean, if it makes you feel special to think that people living a long time ago are entirely on your side then by all means. I just think the founding fathers wouldn’t have wanted it to go down like that.
I’m still waiting for curlcoat to read my post and explain to me which aspect of my experience represented personal irresponsibility or retract her assertion that there’s no other reason that someone could not be able to afford insurance coverage and yet earn too much for Medicaid.
I’ll be over here, waiting. taps foot
And I’m confident that if the founding fathers were alive today, they’d be vampires who would hunt patriotic americans for their delicious red white and blue blood. That, or zombies.
For the record, suggesting that they were immortal as in The Highlander movies would be ridiculous.
Sure… just look at 95% of them.