Yeah, you’re right–four or five truckers, then.
Right, one trucker could temporarily fuck things up. Not sure what this has to do with anything. The dude is still only providing $40,000 or so worth of value to society.
This makes no sense at all.
I disagree that there is evidence to show that. Let’s assume that each poster on the SDMB is a tax unit, and that therefore we can assume that 47% of posters do not pay income tax. (Assuming, of course, the the 47% figure is more or less accurate.)
I would assume that the people who ask for help with board subscriptions are already within the 47%, and not in addition to it. I don’t see why you’d assume that people who make enough to pay tax are also going to ask for subscription renewal help.
The only way (in my mind) that I can justify your stance is that you are assuming that the only people who support income tax are those who do not pay it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
I multi-quoted these posts because they make no sense at all. I wouldn’t even being to pretend that the concept “value as a human being” has any meaning.
I can’t believe I’m actually bothering to make a serious post to this thread on page 31, but anyway, here’s a question, which I will ask and then hit the sack for the night:
Let’s assume, just for kicks, that money really is the only thing that proves someone’s value to society. Let’s further assume that someone is a big-time tax lawyer who brings in scads and scads and scads of dough.
Now let’s assume that this tax lawyer, out of the goodness of his formerly Grinch-like heart, decides, you know what? I’m providing a valuable service here. I should do it for free. I shouldn’t even take people’s money for this service! He’s independently wealthy from years of bringing in scads of dough, so he can easily afford to take no salary for the rest of his career. He is still a tax lawyer. Still providing the exact same service he was before. No change there. But now he’s getting paid: $0.
Did his value to society just drop to nothing? Is he a valueless member of society?
ETA: Hey, congrats on the multi-post, Rand!
Your constant claims that how much a person makes determines their worth to society.
MsWhatsit – that makes me think that, in Rand Rover’s mind, Andrew Carnegie provided no value to society, in his philanthropic actions. Since he did them for free.
Oh, that’s how multi-quote works! anyway -
What I have is questions. If your belief in a UHC is so shaky that it cannot handle questions without you becoming emotional and rude, then why are you supporting it?
And, again, you ignore what I said - maybe this is why I have to repeat myself so much. If you (generic you) have done nothing at all to prepare for an emergency, such as having a savings account, then it is extremely irresponsible to expect that the taxpayer will cover all of your costs. If you choose to, say, buy a house you can’t quite afford and use all of your savings to do so, and then have a medical emergency, do you think that is responsible?
Again I repeat myself - I did not always have these things. I worked and earned, my husband worked and earned (and still does), we budgeted, never took chances, saved, created retirement funds. There were plenty of times we could have taken a flyer on something, but we were simply too - wait for it - responsible to take a chance with our futures. And there is no reason why other people cannot do this - again, I started out well below the poverty level - but far too many people would rather have a bigger house, another kid, or whatever it is that is causing the average family to have zero in savings and high credit card debt even before there are any medical problems.
You made up stories about people getting cancer after a tornado landed or something like that. Or maybe it was Broomstick, it gets hard to tell. Anyway, did I ever in any way indicate that the diagnosis makes any difference? I want to know how many people out there without medical insurance and/or those driven to bankruptcy because of a medical problem even bothered to try to be responsible. I want to know if all of this clamoring for a UHC is just another demand for a handout from the same people who are now demanding bailouts from stupid mortgages
And, I will repeat myself again - there is no guarantee that your cancer patient would get full care under a UHC. There is only so much money available, so if your cancer patient is old and/or far along in the disease prior to diagnosis and/or has some other serious health issue, do you not think it likely that the government will deny full treatment? They may deny full treatment on some things period - high qualify healthcare is desperately expensive, and for a reason.
Apparently, all your cite said was “it was health problems” without any details, which is all I have seen so far. I am looking for what was going on prior to the health issue.
Because there are plenty signs pointing to it, such as the fact that so few US families have any savings and so many of them have a lot of credit card debt. Because of this, it appears to me that there is a growing population of people out there that are skating on the thin edge at all times - do you think another government handout is a good cure for this?
I saw people explain that they can’t get insurance due to pre-existing conditions, so that doesn’t answer it. I saw people say that a private policy would cost them $X, but no reasons why they can’t afford it, other than unemployment.
I’m rather sure that I said that I would use that, as well as doing things like take a bunch of equity out of the house, if we had such a large bill unpaid by insurance that we had no other way of paying it. That card is not a where we would go unless we had to.
No, I said it was a card from his old job. They had him get it in his own name.
Based on WHAT? What he’s carrying could be worth a great deal more than that. One trucker who decides to take his truck to Vegas could cost millions in lost revenue to the people expecting his stuff. In rare circumstances, it could cost lives or livelihoods.
The people who run things and have at least nominal control of the economy can legislate to enrich people like themselves?
The only thing I have been talking about is the value I provide to society. I don’t know what it means to say “my value to society” or my “worth as a human being” or any of that shit.
All I am saying is that lots of liberal douches think I am bad and selfish and only out for myself because I want to make lots of money, but they don’t understand that I have to provide value to society in exchange for that money.
In your hypo, I would still be providing value to society, and the measure would be the value of the services that I provide. Even though I don’t charge for them, we could estimate the value (by, say, looking at the amount others charge for simlar services).
Guin, you are just as wrong as you always are. I’ve only been talking about the value I provide to society, not my “value to society.”
I apologize if I used loose language in any post above that didn’t make this clear. I’m sure someone will be along shortly to take me to task for some post where I say something about my “value to society” or something, but I’m only talking about the value I provide to society, not my worth as a human being or whatever.
No, we think you’re selfish because that’s all you seem to talk about. “Look at me, I’m so rich – hey, did you know I’m rich!!!” Guess what? We don’t care.
Oh, and get a new term – “liberal douches” is really old. Have you no imagination?
I’m quite sure that many people support income tax, but why wouldn’t they, since they are not paying it at all?
It doesn’t have any meaning as regards to money.
You’re right – “how much does your wife cost?” is a nonsensical question. It’s like “what’s the value of a belly laugh” or “how much is your memory worth?” “What does springtime cost?” is a deranged question.
The difference is, you say it’s because all value is based on what people are willing to pay, and we say that some value cannot be measured in only that. Do you understand why a person might pay a reward of $500 for the return of a beloved pet? Why a man might spend thousands on a shiny rock artificially overvalued by a wealthy family on a circle of yellow metal that could better be used for delicate electrical components?
You refuse to acknowledge value measured in anything but money. It’s convenient, because then you can ignore everyone who disagrees.
Please. I’ve never made a single post that is anything like what you quoted (except for in my fake meltdown that I had at your request). I just mention that I make a lot of money and people automatically assume I’m bragging or lording over them or something. Probably because there are a lot of losers here on the SDMB (such as yourself) who can’t find the means to not keep living off their parents well into their adult years.
I am also entertained that by your lights you are worth less to society than Paris Hilton.
Let me ask you this–how much value do you think the average long-haul trucker adds to society? Please answer in monetary terms. If the number is in excess of the average salary of a long-haul trucker, please explain the difference.
I support income tax, and I’m paying more this year than I ever have in my life. And if next year it goes up a bit to pay for stuff like UHC and paying down the deficit, I’m fine with that too.
Truckers actually make a fairly large amount of money, but that’s mostly because they have to maintain their own vehicles. Take-home, a good trucker makes about $36k – that’s purely anecdotal, though.
Let’s break that down into months. $36,000 is $3000/month. He is hauling well over $3000 in merchandise in that month. He is probably hauling well over $36,000 in merchandise at one time – maybe more if he’s hauling a bunch of plasma TVs or a mighty truck of iPods, maybe less if he’s hauling lettuce.
But he did not invent the TV, you say, or build the iPod or grow the lettuce. Okay. But without him, you have no access to it. By the mere act of arriving in town and unloading his goods, the trucker has kept things running. He has enriched the area. It sounds overblown, but you’re the person who chose to point at someone who really contributes a lot.
In other words, you’ve got nothing. Your value to society is not measured by your salary. Your salary merely measures what your clientele, a very small portion of society, is willing to pay for your services. Your value to society is multi-faceted and comprised of many more factors than just your salary.
My husband, a former over the road trucker, says that the long haul guys make twice that much, easily.
Why can’t you do your own research to answer your questions? When I offer you cites, you either flagrantly do not read them, or you dismiss them as biased. Thus, you should do your own research, find sources that you think are credible, and answer your own questions. Do you think I was born knowing about about health care? I had questions, I looked them up, and I found answers. I am not obligated to do the same for you, considering our long history of me providing cites and you disregarding them.
Most people do not have 6 figure savings. This is a fact. People who do not have 6 figure savings are not, IMO, irresponsible. Now, many people have equity in their homes, but if you tap into that for an emergency, and you don’t recover from your illness, then you will lose your house. This is a common scenario. I feel compassion for people in this situation because most people I know are middle class and, if they didn’t have insurance and got seriously ill or injured, would be in this very situation. If you don’t even own your home, you lack even that equity to tap into, so where would you come up with enough money to cover a 6 figure medical expense $20,000 in the bank would be loooong gone.
What if some catastrophe had happened to you before you had amassed all this wealth, like your husband got laid off, and you lost your insurance because he was out of work for 2 years (it happens)? Then, because of your pre-existing medical conditions, when he got another job, you weren’t covered, and had an emergency that required you to have an extended hospital stay? You would be as screwed as anyone else. This is not an usual scenario.
My point is, you can have savings, but very few people have THAT much in savings. I don’t know anyone who is middle class around my age who has a six figures in liquid assets.
Please cite where I said that. I merely offered you the numerical figures for what cancer treatment costs for the uninsured and asked if you could afford it. Most people couldn’t.
Because it would eat up half their take home pay for the month? It’s fucking expensive, and maybe they want to eat, or pay the rent instead.
Oh, and lest you think I am ignoring you, I’m off to bed. 
Well, that’s strange, to me. Any chance you can pay taxes for me, since you’re so inclined ? 