# Anything New on the "Voynich" Manuscript? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 26, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432 "2010-12-26T15:57:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/61 "2011-02-02T04:51:17Z")
Can you show me a page from a text written in another language that uses those repetitions multiple times on the same page? On nearly _every_ page? ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/62 "2011-02-02T04:52:09Z")
[Roche de Bouef](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIIUXh6H_o) ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/63 "2011-02-02T06:20:59Z")
Or maybe it is just a base seven numerical system of a Cult of Cattle Herders. Maybe it is [Minoan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_%28mythology%29) (mythologically Atlanteaen?). ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/64 "2011-02-02T06:26:39Z")
The amateurish quality of the art is also a red flag; manuscripts of that time were usually _much_ better illustrated. ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/65 "2011-02-02T07:58:53Z")
[Kid rock-I am the Bull(Buffalo)God](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asMJuQHE0AU) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/66 "2011-02-02T10:08:24Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Can you show me a page from a text written in another language that uses those repetitions multiple times on the same page? On nearly _every_ page? Yeah sure. Murrumbeek nunurrunkella kuding Pungdyl Marman, koongee palleek mongeit woorwoorrer bar beeker ; bar kuding Jesus Christ Tindee mummum murrumbununner Lord; wellainer burrawee woorwoorrer mongonner koolinge bagrook marnameek ; wellainer nillam koolinglilbuk weakeit bar berbuk, narlumboon burrung ; wellainer weagoulaneit bar numbuk ; wellainer tinderbeek bengero ganmel yellenwa, kuding commargee numnumo, bar kubboweer woorwooroit bar narlumby ulbinner munung Pundgyl Marmanieek ; uungo yellenwa Jesus Christ nerlingo mongoin umarko koolinge bagrook terridee kargeeiek ; bar pindoner boundup bar meungo. That use of “woorwoorrer” and “woorwoorroit” means “heaven” and it appears in the Bible in this language, well, as often as heaven appears in the Bible, which may not be every page, but will be damn close in large sections. Or the use of the term [yaltji here](http://www.nt.gov.au/lant/parliament/committees/condev/transcripts/kin040489.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/67 "2011-02-02T10:41:40Z")
Couldn’t it be an examination of language itself, albeit in another language? I’m reminded of The _Epistolae_ of [Virgilius Maro Grammaticus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgilius_Maro_Grammaticus), where he, amongst other things, writes passages in extreme hyperbaton. I’m perfectly willing to accept that it’s a fake, but it’s still a 14th century fake without parallel, as far as I am aware. Even if the reason for writing was “For shits and giggles”, that’s pretty amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/68 "2011-02-02T13:53:28Z")
Blake writes: \> The problem is that you already said it. You said outright that it was unlikely to \> be an ordinary language. I said it because I had been assured that there were a number of examples similar to “Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo” in the manuscript. Now you’re telling me that there aren’t any repetitions that long in the manuscript, and you’re apparently telling me that I was stupid for believing the poster who seemed to be claiming that there are examples like this. Once again, I’m tired of messed around with. Give me a list of the repetitions and near-repetitions in the manuscript. Till you do, there’s nothing to argue about. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/69 "2011-02-02T13:55:45Z")
Why would it be “an examination of language itself” when the pictures in the manuscript all seem to show that it’s something else? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/70 "2011-02-02T14:17:42Z")
Is the full text available anywhere? I’ve only ever seen the same few images over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/71 "2011-02-02T15:10:46Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Why would it be “an examination of language itself” when the pictures in the manuscript all seem to show that it’s something else? I’m going to go with the cop-out answer: maybe it’s about lots of things. I’ve got a copy of _The Queer, the Quaint and the Quizzical_ from the 1880s, and it has entries on history, geography and the natural world, as well as strange sentences; for example, _Odo tenet mulum, madidam mappam tenet anna._ Could the weird flowers have been added by a different scribe? There are Old English texts where the pictures were added in afterwards. That’s just adding layers of complexity for complexity’s sake, though. ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/72 "2011-02-02T15:39:57Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > Could the weird flowers have been added by a different scribe? There are Old English texts where the pictures were added in afterwards. That’s just adding layers of complexity for complexity’s sake, though. Based on the layout of the text and the pictures, it’s pretty certain that the pictures were there first. As for the person who asked for the full text: > **[Digital Collections at the Beinecke Library](https://beinecke.library.yale.edu/digital-collections/digital-collections-beinecke-library)** (I hope the link works, if not put in Voynich and Yale in Google like I did) ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/73 "2011-02-02T16:14:54Z")
Could it be that the “words” don’t represent words but phonemes or syllables? Perhaps gollog and gollodg stand for very different sounds, in a language that does things like niwa ni wa ni wa niwatori imasu (“in the garden there are two chickens”) or chichiichichinin (“you ran to me”). ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/74 "2011-02-02T17:25:58Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Is the full text available anywhere? I’ve only ever seen the same few images over and over. Here’s [another full-text link](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Voynich_manuscript) (necessarily rendered in pictures). I think there are PDF versions out there, too … those are, of course, raster images (JPEGs, BMPs, TIFFs, and such) just saved as a single PDF. It would take a while, but you could save your own raster images to your drive from the Wikipedia Commons site I linked to. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/75 "2011-02-02T17:30:21Z")
As for words repeated three times … perhaps it is a textual description of a pattern. My understanding is that the words repeated three times are short ones. So maybe what’s being communicated is something like: _“The petals of the sunflower are arranged in an ABA ABA ABA pattern.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/76 "2011-02-02T17:56:39Z")
Or it might just be a reference to the author’s great great great grandfather. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/77 "2011-02-02T23:55:45Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Yeah sure. > > Murrumbeek nunurrunkella kuding Pungdyl > Marman, koongee palleek mongeit woorwoorrer > bar beeker ; bar kuding Jesus Christ Tindee > mummum murrumbununner Lord; wellainer > burrawee woorwoorrer mongonner koolinge bagrook > marnameek ; wellainer nillam koolinglilbuk > weakeit bar berbuk, narlumboon burrung ; > wellainer weagoulaneit bar numbuk ; wellainer > tinderbeek bengero ganmel yellenwa, kuding > commargee numnumo, bar kubboweer woorwooroit > bar narlumby ulbinner munung Pundgyl > Marmanieek ; uungo yellenwa Jesus Christ nerlingo > mongoin umarko koolinge bagrook terridee > kargeeiek ; bar pindoner boundup bar meungo. > > That use of “woorwoorrer” and “woorwoorroit” means “heaven” and it appears in the Bible in this language, well, as often as heaven appears in the Bible, which may not be every page, but will be damn close in large sections. > Or the use of the term [yaltji here](http://www.nt.gov.au/lant/parliament/committees/condev/transcripts/kin040489.pdf). I’m missing where the same word gets repeated three times. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/78 "2011-02-03T07:10:26Z")
We’ll probably never know what the thing was, because it’s purpose is likely simply lost to history. It could be the product of some con man trying to start a religion - a ‘holy book’ written in an ‘ancient language’ that only he could ‘read’ could be quite the ticket. Or it could have simply been someone creating a fantastic ‘relic’ from mystic lands, to be sold to the first sucker in a carriage. Or it could have been an artist’s attempt to leave a mystery to the world, precisely to mess with people’s heads in the future. Andy Warhol (or Andy Kaufman, for that matter) could have done such a thing for giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/79 "2011-02-03T10:40:07Z")
Does anybody know how much a book like this would have cost to produce in the early 15th century? How many people would have been involved in its production? I’m only familiar with book production in the first millenium AD, so I don’t know what the process would have been 400 years on. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432/80 "2011-02-14T04:51:02Z")
I saw this article today and thought of this thread: > **[Experts determine age of book 'nobody can read'](https://phys.org/news/2011-02-experts-age.html)** > > (PhysOrg.com) -- While enthusiasts across the world pored over the Voynich manuscript, one of the most mysterious writings ever found penned by an unknown author in a language no one understands a research team at the UA solved one of its biggest... University of Arizona researchers have carbon-dated the manuscript and estimate that it was produced between 1404 to 1438. I have to echo **Double Foolscap** and ask how much a manuscript like this would have cost to produce in the early 1400s. Surely it would have been fabulously expensive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-new-on-the-voynich-manuscript/565432.md?page=5)