# Anything wrong with criticizing your own country/government while abroad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 1, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665 "2006-11-01T00:36:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/1 "2006-11-01T00:36:27Z")
Inspired by [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7919777&postcount=65) post in a CS thread on [_Shut Up and Sing,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shut_up_and_sing) the new documentary about the [Dixie Chicks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks) and the fallout after Natalie Maines, while the group was on tour in London, told the crowd, “Just so you know, we’re ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas.” **InvisibleWombat** insists it does make a big difference that she made this statement while abroad rather than at home. Does it? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/2 "2006-11-01T00:41:07Z")
I can understand **InvisibleWombat** ’s attitude, to some extent. It’s keeping it in the family. My relatives and I can fight like cats and dogs between ourselves, but family is united against the rest of the world. Robert Heinlein would not allow Expanded Universe to be published outside the U.S. because it contained criticism of the U.S. I’m not sure how relevant it is anymore, though. With today’s technology, she could have said it in Dallas, and it would get around the world anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/3 "2006-11-01T00:42:34Z")
She’s also complimenting Texas. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/4 "2006-11-01T00:44:10Z")
You should be able to criticize your own contry/government any time, any place. Period. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/5 "2006-11-01T00:53:26Z")
I thought the Dixie Chicks’ comment was a rather light shot at the President. I find it much more objectionable that the President says that if fellow Americans of a certain stripe are elected to office, that terrorists will win. [(cite)](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061031/ts_afp/usvote_061030230353) Civility starts at home. If we cannot act like compatriots, then I think glib comments overseas ought to be excused. There are lines that can be crossed. I thought Congressman Jim McDermott’s visit to Iraq just before the war in which he made some rather controversial remarks was a example of crossing the line, and I was at the time and still am an opponent of the war. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/6 "2006-11-01T01:08:40Z")
Is this supposed to apply only to public figures and/or celebrities? 'Cuz I just spent two years in the Netherlands and a year before that in India, and I have to admit I did quite some criticizing of my own (US) government in both places. Somehow, though, I don’t really like it when somebody **starts** a conversation or a public appearance in a foreign country by volunteering complaints about their own country or government. (Unless it’s in the context of paying a compliment to the host country; e.g., “Here in the Netherlands you have such great support for public transit and bicycling, I wish my country would learn a few things from you” or something like that.) It has sort of an aroma of trying to curry favor with your hosts by putting down your own people. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/7 "2006-11-01T01:13:00Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] **InvisibleWombat** insists it does make a big difference that she made this statement while abroad rather than at home. Does it? [/QUOTE] I gues it does to _him_. _shrug_ Legally, she free to speak her mind, and free to do it on the “public” airwaves of the host nation. And her fans are free to react by refusing to go to her concerts, if that is what _they_ decide. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/8 "2006-11-01T01:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] There are lines that can be crossed. I thought Congressman Jim McDermott’s visit to Iraq just before the war in which he made some rather controversial remarks was a example of crossing the line, and I was at the time and still am an opponent of the war. [/QUOTE] Well, as far as “professionalism” goes, I guess a US government official overseas aught to show a little, ummm, measured respect for the State Department position, at least… but I don’t know what the proper response should be. If he is just saying he disagrees with resorting to “the use of force to solve our differences”, meh, whatever. Let his constituents approve or disapprove with their votes. If he goes to Darfur, and tells the poor folks there: “George Bush hates you because of the color of your skin, and he’s gonna let you DIIIIEEEE!” Well, hehe, do we impeach the guy? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/9 "2006-11-01T03:43:39Z")
The idea is probably best articulated in a speech by Senator Vandenberg, who said, > [@](#): > > To me, ‘bipartisan foreign policy’ means a mutual effort, under our indispensable two-party system, to unite our official voice at the water’s edge so that America speaks with maximum authority against those who would divide and conquer us and the free world ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/10 "2006-11-01T04:11:52Z")
Of course it’s acceptable when oversea. When I was in France, I made it a point to let anyone who I interacted with know that I don’t approve of Bush and his antics- one because its true, and two, you don’t want anyone pissing in your Perrier because they think you’re a supporter of the American government. I wish I had had the foresight to wear a maple leaf t-shirt. ---
**Author:** ![50million](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/9fc348/32.png) [@50million](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/50million)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/11 "2006-11-01T05:02:49Z")
Of course you can criticize when you’re overseas. Does the Constitution have anything in it about not applying when you’re on vacation? Anyway, hasn’t she been proven correct since then? If she said it today it would have not made the news; and if it did people would have agreed with her. Don’t criticize overseas is an idiotic variation of “You support your president during wartime!” ( I hate it when people use this sentence structure; taking the “should” out of a sentence to try to make it more forceful.) If the president is being an idiot and making horrible decisions then I don’t support him no matter what time it is. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/12 "2006-11-01T05:15:45Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Inspired by [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7919777&postcount=65) post in a CS thread on [_Shut Up and Sing,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shut_up_and_sing) the new documentary about the [Dixie Chicks](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixie_Chicks) and the fallout after Natalie Maines, while the group was on tour in London, told the crowd, “Just so you know, we’re ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas.” **InvisibleWombat** insists it does make a big difference that she made this statement while abroad rather than at home. Does it? [/QUOTE] No not as a private citizen. I think it’s bad form for any Congressperson or cabinet member to do so, however. It doesn’t present the right kind of front. ---
**Author:** ![Subway\_Prophet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Subway\_Prophet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subway_Prophet)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/13 "2006-11-01T14:04:35Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] Of course it’s acceptable when oversea. When I was in France, I made it a point to let anyone who I interacted with know that I don’t approve of Bush and his antics- one because its true, and two, you don’t want anyone pissing in your Perrier because they think you’re a supporter of the American government. [/quote] I’ve made a point of criticizing my government when overseas as well, but I also go to great pains to describe my love for my country. I think most people get it. Everyone I’ve met overseas generally like America but hate America’s foreign policy. (But on the other hand, a great number of people I’ve met overseas are probably involved with the tourism industry…) > [@](#): > > I wish I had had the foresight to wear a maple leaf t-shirt. I generally like Canada and what she stands for, and who knows, I might move there some day, but I’ll be damned if I go around pretending to be a Canadian if I’m not. I think it’s insulting to your home country. (Unless **Wee Bairn** is Canadian, in which case wearing a maple leaf shirt would express pride in his home country.) ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/14 "2006-11-01T15:13:44Z")
People are not seeing the distinction between can’t and shouldn’t. Of course Natalie Maines has the right to criticize the government anywhere she wants. And I have the right to embarass my child in front of his friends. This doesn’t mean I should. It’s just bad form. I think a lot of you are having knee-jerk reactions because you agree with her. I agree with her too but again, I think it’s bad form to air your dirty laundry in front of “strangers”. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/15 "2006-11-01T15:25:02Z")
[QUOTE=BwanaBob] I think a lot of you are having knee-jerk reactions because you agree with her. I agree with her too but again, I think it’s bad form to air your dirty laundry in front of “strangers”. [/QUOTE] Natalie was not revealing any “dirty laundry.” Bush’s status as a stain on the reputation of the USA (& Texas) was not exactly a secret. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/16 "2006-11-01T16:02:43Z")
When Geraldine Brooks was researching her book _Nine Parts of Desire: The Hidden World of Islamic Women_, she was in Iran and met an American woman who had married an Iranian and moved there to live. The Iranians often tell Americans who go there: “It’s only your government that we hate. We like the American people.” And the American woman quoted by Brooks said, “Oh yeah? Well, in the United States, the people _are_ the government!” An excellent patriotic riposte. But I don’t think I would utter it during the current administration. I have become a Dixie Chicks fan. Listen to their new album, _Taking the Long Way_, they’re as uppity, outspoken, and unrepentant as ever. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/17 "2006-11-01T16:09:34Z")
[QUOTE=BwanaBob] I think a lot of you are having knee-jerk reactions because you agree with her. I agree with her too but again, I think it’s bad form to air your dirty laundry in front of “strangers”. [/QUOTE] That’s a bunch of BS. I’m an American living in Japan, and there is a world of difference between listening to FOX or CNN everyday and not. Closing ranks with a war criminal is not necessary just because blood is thicker than water. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/18 "2006-11-01T16:20:46Z")
It is not a violation of law. It is not a breech of etiquette. It does not fly in the face of tradition, morality or common sense. Nope, seems OK to me. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/19 "2006-11-01T16:21:55Z")
I think it is only bad form (although clearly well within her rights) if you are not also willing to say it at home in the U.S.A. (and I don’t know if the Dixie Chicks girl did or didn’t in this case). Basically it is like talking about someone behind their back. Although these days, as was mentioned, wtih global communication the way it is, it is kind of a moot point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665/20 "2006-11-01T16:24:38Z")
It’s undignified. You have every right to do it, but just because I have the free speech right to tell you how much I want to lick your daughter’s pussy doesn’t mean it’s _right_ to do it at our business meeting. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anything-wrong-with-criticizing-your-own-country-government-while-abroad/378665.md?page=2)