# "Anyways" & "An Historic" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 13, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411 "2001-07-13T19:37:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jsochock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@Jsochock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jsochock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/1 "2001-07-13T19:37:26Z")
Okay… First - I have always been thrown by hearing “an historic” when I thought the rule of thumb was: ‘an’ for a vowel and ‘a’ for a consonant. Second - Have you noticed the rapid growth in use of the word “anyways”? Who started this horrible word and how did the use spread so quickly? I even hear it being used in movies and television shows. Do you actually think it’s written into the script that way? Help me out here! ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/2 "2001-07-13T19:45:22Z")
It’s in the wrong forum anyways. your humble TubaDiva Administrator ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/3 "2001-07-13T20:16:06Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘an’ for a vowel and ‘a’ for a consonant. Try: ‘an’ for a vowel _sound_ and ‘a’ for a consonantal _sound_. A History of the English speaking people. History is accented on the first syllable and the H is clearly spoken. The Authority & Interpretation of the Bible: An Historical Approach or The Egyptian Hermes: A Historical Approach to the Late Pagan Mind In the word _historical_ (or _historic_) the accent is on the second syllable and, for many speakers, the clear aspiration of the initial ‘H’ disappears. The choice you make is based on how _you_ tend to say or hear the words. Either is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/4 "2001-07-13T20:48:49Z")
Emphasize “rule of thumb,” too. After all, it’s “a uniform” but “an umbrella.” That said, I wonder if using “an” before words starting with h is an anachronism. For example, it’s technically correct to use “mine” before words starting with vowels or with the letter h. “Mine arm” and “Mine house” are perfectly correct, but archaic. Perhaps (and I merely toss this out as speculation) “an” originally preceded words starting with h as well as words starting with vowels, and the practice merely hasn’t died out in the same way as the practice of using “mine” instead of “my” has. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this might or might not be the case? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/5 "2001-07-13T23:58:50Z")
“an” before “historic” is a Britishism that American commentators have taken up. It always used to be “a historic moment” in the U.S. and “an historic moment” in Britain. Since WWII, more and more Americans have switched to using “an.” ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/6 "2001-07-14T02:38:47Z")
This on “a” vs. “an” from the editors of the Random House Dictionary: > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com?date=19970804)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading. And this on “anyways”: > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com?date=20001030)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading. ---
**Author:** ![BigStar303](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@BigStar303](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigStar303)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/7 "2001-07-14T06:55:19Z")
We just went through the whole “an historic” bit in another thread. Personally, I think it’s time to cut to the chase. I believe there are few if any American speakers of English who actually say [phonetic representation follows] “an isotric occasion.” I think what’s happening is that American speakers are saying [phonetic again] “an historic occasion” and actually pronouncing the “h,” with the mistaken idea that by doing so, they’re being oh-so-correct. It’s time to put a stop to this nonsense and be perfectly clear: unless you’re a British speaker of English who truly does drop the initial “h” sound in “historic,” then you’ve got no business preceding the word with “an.” In any case, it is certainly time for the WRITTEN phrase “an historic occasion” to die a death here in the states. There is simply no reason for it to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/8 "2001-07-14T16:30:04Z")
Simmer down, there, **BigStar303**. As a speaker of Southern-accented American English, I find that “an” works much better with my lazy, h-dropping pronunciation of “historic.” (It’s just too much work in all this heat to fully enunciate the “h.”) So I believe I’ll stick with “an.” ---
**Author:** ![BigStar303](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@BigStar303](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigStar303)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/9 "2001-07-14T17:08:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*Simmer down, there, **BigStar303**. > > As a speaker of Southern-accented American English, I find that “an” works much better with my lazy, h-dropping pronunciation of “historic.” (It’s just too much work in all this heat to fully enunciate the “h.”) > > So I believe I’ll stick with “an.” \*\* OK, if this is truly the way you say it, then that’s OK. I’m curious, though, as to whether you would say “This book is an history of warfare in the 20th Century.” Do you drop the “h” on “history” too? In any case, my point about written language stands. For better or worse, we write English based on so-called Standard English rather than regional pronunciation. So I continue to maintain that seeing “an historic” in print in America is foolish. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/10 "2001-07-14T17:36:14Z")
Why would any speaker in the U.S. drop the H from the _accented_ first syllable of history? As noted above, the aspiration drops on unaccented syllables. As to arbitrarily imposing some rule based on an imaginary “standard” pronunciation, you would first have to determine what is standard. Calls to abandon a usage because _you_ think that the speakers are trying to sound British (when it is clear that they are simply speaking their own dialect) seem a bit presumptuous. I’m afraid that you’re simply going to have to grit your teeth and include this in your stock of pet peeves. (Mine currently includes wincing every time someone in the belt from Pittsburgh to Akron-Canton drops the verb “to be” from a sentence. I don’t enjoy it, but I am not going to call for remedial education for that bunch.) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/11 "2001-07-15T01:43:59Z")
Time Magazine got a lot of flak several years ago for putting “A Historic Occasion” on its cover, but I applauded. This is one usage that I favor. “An Historic”, as has alread been pointed out in this thread, doesn’t make sense if you aspirate your “h”, as most Americans do. (I’ve never heard an excption – even in the South, although I’ll take your word that it exists). As I’ve always argued, it seems to make a difference what sound follows that “a” or “an”. A “long U” sound is still a vowel sound, but it suns as if it could be spelled with an initial “Y”. Whatever the reason, one NEVER uses “an” in front of a long U ( A unicorn, A Unitarian, A Utahn, A unique situation), no matter where you’re from, so the effective rule canmnot be “AN before a vowel”. Also, as noted above, “AN” before “h” never seem to come up EXCEPT in connection with “historic”. No one says “An history book”, or “An hysterical episode”. BTW, I was under the impression this was an OLD usage we were fighting against, not an up-and-coming status symbol. “Anyways” , however, I condemn. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/12 "2001-07-15T06:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > No one says “An history book”, or “An hysterical episode”. I dunno; I don’t say “an history book” either, but **I** say “an hysterical episode.” Admittedly, I also talk fairly rapidly and thus don’t fully aspirate the h. ---
**Author:** ![BigStar303](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@BigStar303](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigStar303)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/13 "2001-07-15T08:54:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Why would any speaker in the U.S. drop the H from the _accented_ first syllable of history? As noted above, the aspiration drops on unaccented syllables. \*\* OK, I can see this as a rationale for some speakers not aspirating the first syllable. Again, if people genuinely pronounce it “an istoric,” I won’t object to it in speech. (I have to confess, though, that “an isterical” is a new one on me!). However… > [@](#): > > \*\*As to arbitrarily imposing some rule based on an imaginary “standard” pronunciation, you would first have to determine what is standard. \*\* I don’t think this is all that difficult. Remember that I was talking later in my post about _written_ English vs. _spoken._ I said that the decision as to which article to precede “historical” with in print should be predicated on Standard Usage. While there may be some disagreement on individual issues, there is general agreement on most words and phrases as to what is Standard and what isn’t (e.g., “regardless” is Standard, “irregardless” is non-Standard). Here’s a test case: There are a lot of people in the United States who say “y’all” (probably more, in fact, than those who say “an istoric”). Nevertheless, this is not considered Standard English, so even in the deep South you would not expect a sentence such as this in the midst of a serious newspaper editorial: “And so we say to the local school board, what are y’all gonna do about this?” The same thought process should apply to “an historic” in print. > [@](#): > > \*\*Calls to abandon a usage because _you_ think that the speakers are trying to sound British (when it is clear that they are simply speaking their own dialect) seem a bit presumptuous. \*\* Again, if the speaker genuinely pronounces it “an istoric,” I don’t have a problem with it in speech. My problem is with those who say “an historic” and aspirate the “h” – as well as with those who would write “an historic.” I don’t think they’re trying to “sound British” – I think they’re trying to be overly correct (and in so doing, winding up being woefully incorrect). > [@](#): > > \*\*I’m afraid that you’re simply going to have to grit your teeth and include this in your stock of pet peeves. (Mine currently includes wincing every time someone in the belt from Pittsburgh to Akron-Canton drops the verb “to be” from a sentence. I don’t enjoy it, but I am not going to call for remedial education for that bunch.) \*\* Since I come from exactly this geographical area, I’d be interested to see an example of what you mean! BTW, people who are unable to speak Standard English _do_ need remedial education, because their inability to do so may very well come back to bite them in the ass one day. I have no problem at all with using non-Standard forms in casual situations with your friends and family. But if you can’t “drop the vernacular” and speak carefully and correctly in more formal situations, there’s a good chance you’ll one day face negative repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/14 "2001-07-15T14:40:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I have no problem at all with using non-Standard forms in casual situations with your friends and family. But if you can’t “drop the vernacular” and speak carefully and correctly in more formal situations, there’s a good chance you’ll one day face negative repercussions. If you can lose a contract or get fired for saying or typing “an historic occasion,” you run with a lot tougher crowd than I do. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/15 "2001-07-15T16:03:52Z")
Is dropping the “h” southern? I must say, as a North Carolinian I have NEVER heard anybody say “an 'ouse” or “an 'amburger” or “an 'aircut” no matter how thick a southern drawl. Nor have I heard any southerners say “an 'istoric” but its not a word used in casual conversation 'round here anyway (or “'round 'ere anyways”?) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/16 "2001-07-15T17:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Carolinian I have NEVER heard anybody say “an 'ouse” or “an 'amburger” or “an 'aircut” Note that for each of these words, the H would occur in an accented syllable so that even if the disputed pronunciation is true, those words would have never lost the H aspiraion. ---
**Author:** ![BigStar303](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@BigStar303](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigStar303)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/17 "2001-07-15T19:33:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I have no problem at all with using non-Standard forms in casual situations with your friends and family. But if you can’t “drop the vernacular” and speak carefully and correctly in more formal situations, there’s a good chance you’ll one day face negative repercussions. > > If you can lose a contract or get fired for saying or typing “an historic occasion,” you run with a lot tougher crowd than I do. \*\* You’re being a little silly here. My reference wasn’t to the specific dispute about “historic,” but was a more general one. I wish that, rather this meaningless comment, you had chosen to address some of the other points in my last post. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/18 "2001-07-15T22:31:26Z")
Sorry. I indicated, (rather too subtly, I guess), that this discussion was far too weighty for the material it purports to discuss when I mentioned pet peeves, earlier. You are the one who has chosen to depict people outside your experience as operating under the “mistaken idea that by doing so, they’re being oh-so-correct.” and have declared “It’s time to put a stop to this nonsense. . . .” Any comments following that ponderous declaration must either be treated with solemnity or humor. I cannot treat such declarations with solemnity. I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![BigStar303](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dec6dc/32.png) [@BigStar303](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigStar303)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/19 "2001-07-16T14:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Sorry. I indicated, (rather too subtly, I guess), that this discussion was far too weighty for the material it purports to discuss when I mentioned pet peeves, earlier. \*\* I too am sorry. In the future, I’ll make every effort to confine my posts to subjects that you personally deem worthy of discussion. I deeply regret my error. > [@](#): > > \*\* > You are the one who has chosen to depict people outside your experience as operating under the “mistaken idea that by doing so, they’re being oh-so-correct.” and have declared “It’s time to put a stop to this nonsense. . . .” > > Any comments following that ponderous declaration must either be treated with solemnity or humor. I cannot treat such declarations with solemnity.\*\* Translation: “Unlike everyone else who has participated in this thread, I lack the ability to address the finer points under discussion intelligently. Therefore, I’ll just ignore them, and instead adopt a general tone of condescension.” ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411/20 "2001-07-16T14:46:11Z")
Yup. No question about it. After the “how do I buy/make/hide my drugs” threads, my favorites are on grammar and European nobility. Those really bring out the fun ones. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anyways-an-historic/72411.md?page=2)