# AOC's "Green New Deal" pipe dream **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2019, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160 "2019-02-08T08:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/81 "2019-02-09T15:00:35Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/82 "2019-02-09T15:19:05Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Fuck that’s long. You think I have time to sit around this message board, reading all day long? _Spit-take!_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/83 "2019-02-09T15:31:41Z")
You know what would be totally awful? If we undertake her Green Agenda, start putting money and intelligence to work on it, and it happens? And we enter a new age of cheap, abundant and green energy? And then it turns out we were wrong, that it wasn’t really necessary! What a disaster, huh? Could go back, I suppose, resume dumping shit into our rivers and poison into our air. But by then, the investing class will be invested in Green, rather than Exxon, and are likely to resist! And there we’ll be, surrounded by healthy grandchildren with actual futures, and no way to get back to the Age of Shit! Alas! Woe is us! Take solar energy, for instance! We start leaching energy from the sun, how long before it runs out! Fucking hippies, never think about stuff like that! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/84 "2019-02-09T16:07:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > You are getting more than just Mike Pesca there. He has a staff, and they seem like highly competent radio people. It is slickly produced without seeming self consciously so. Plus of course he has the backing of Slate more broadly. That is ok, but missing the point that you (not Mike) did the equivalent in that post of dismissing an expert for using some hyperbole (that does not change the numbers) and not being able to dismiss his main subject or issue, it was like dismissing planetary mechanics just because Velikowski found some bits that Astronomers and Cosmologists got **seemingly** wrong early on. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/85 "2019-02-09T16:10:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > \ > I’m not saying you’re wrong to not know of the term AOC, but personally I can’t swing a dead cat on this board without hitting the initials. Pics of you swinging a dead cat or it didn’t happen. I didn’t listen to the podcast, is part of the Green New Deal swinging dead cats, windmill-style, as a source of renewable energy/to replace fossil fuels ? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/86 "2019-02-09T17:49:37Z")
I have mixed feelings about AOC. I am delighted that she is inspiring young progressives! OTOH, I wish she did better fact-checking. But to be credible, any criticism of AOC should be accompanied with a disclaimer like “Of course every single Republican is a despicable liar who knows far less about our problems and their solutions than this young lady.” Who was it, the Republican Chairman of the Science Committee who pompously brought a glass of ice water to a hearing as proof that ice melting doesn’t raise ocean levels? :smack: American voters are low-information and it reflects very badly on the detractors of this young ex-bartender to focus on minutiae instead of the lying scum from the Kleptocrat Party who are gleefully stealing trillions and laughing at Democrats tripping over their own feet. On the other matter: (1) I often watch YouTubes at faster-than-normal speed. And sometimes the visual that goes with the audio is useful. (It may even help with the focus needed to follow at high speed.) (2) A worthy podcast should have a transcript. (3) I access 'Net on my laptop, not in my car. There are good reasons I wouldn’t listen to a podcast in my car even if that were convenient. (4) The suggestion to watch a podcast is reminiscent of Sam Stone’s request years ago that we listen to several hours of Milton Friedman YouTubes before he would deign to discuss with us. :smack: (5) **Kimstu** touched on some of the flaws of the podcast suggestion in his post that begins: > [@Kimstu](#): > > If we want to discuss the SOTU as political theater, complete with audience reactions, clothing choices, etc., then of course we have to watch it or at least clips of it in order to be able to talk about it intelligently… ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/87 "2019-02-09T18:12:35Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > Pics of you swinging a dead cat or it didn’t happen. > > I didn’t listen to the podcast, is part of the Green New Deal swinging dead cats, windmill-style, as a source of renewable energy/to replace fossil fuels ? Fucking leave Tibbles out of this. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/88 "2019-02-09T19:28:06Z")
In case anybody cares, early polling of the Green New Deal is pretty damn positive: [https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/421765-poll-majorities-of-both-parties-support-green-new-deal](https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/421765-poll-majorities-of-both-parties-support-green-new-deal) ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/89 "2019-02-09T19:50:24Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I have mixed feelings about AOC. I am delighted that she is inspiring young progressives! OTOH, I wish she did better fact-checking. > > But to be credible, any criticism of AOC should be accompanied with a disclaimer like “Of course every single Republican is a despicable liar who knows far less about our problems and their solutions than this young lady.” Who was it, the Republican Chairman of the Science Committee who pompously brought a glass of ice water to a hearing as proof that ice melting doesn’t raise ocean levels? :smack: > > American voters are low-information and it reflects very badly on the detractors of this young ex-bartender to focus on minutiae instead of the lying scum from the Kleptocrat Party who are gleefully stealing trillions and laughing at Democrats tripping over their own feet. I have seen AOC make a number of missteps and mention some inaccuracies. What I have not seen her do, when confronted with a mistake or inaccuracy, is to double down on it. It seems that, she is young, and she has much to learn, but she seems willing to learn it. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/90 "2019-02-09T21:54:36Z")
So let’s take BigT’s claim as a given: that AOC’s overstatements and inaccuracies do more good politically in the short term than the harm they do by undermining Democrats’ credibility with swing voters in swing states (who are still very powerful in a hyperpartisan era, due to how closely divided the country is). I don’t necessarily believe that, but let’s assume it’s true for the sake of argument. What happens to those idealistic voters when ten years have passed and Democrats have not fulfilled their pie-in-the-sky promises? Don’t we end up worse off than before, with the next generation being even more disillusioned? I just don’t think this is a sustainable political path. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/91 "2019-02-09T22:33:48Z")
If nothing else happens, having a member of congress with a large audience calling for this kind of thing shifts the Overton Window, which has been flying to the right this last decade or so because of the sheer mass of right wing demagoguery. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/92 "2019-02-09T23:12:27Z")
I didn’t transcribe it, but the podcast segment also includes some snark and silliness from Pesca about the Overton Window. I don’t believe we should play fast and loose with the facts to move that “window”. We need to make our brand the one that doesn’t use “truthiness”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/93 "2019-02-09T23:18:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So let’s take BigT’s claim as a given: that AOC’s overstatements and inaccuracies do more good politically in the short term than the harm they do by undermining Democrats’ credibility with swing voters in swing states (who are still very powerful in a hyperpartisan era, due to how closely divided the country is). I don’t necessarily believe that, but let’s assume it’s true for the sake of argument. > > What happens to those idealistic voters when ten years have passed and Democrats have not fulfilled their pie-in-the-sky promises? Don’t we end up worse off than before, with the next generation being even more disillusioned? I just don’t think this is a sustainable political path. You must not be aware of the issue at hand in full, we will all lose. Not just Democrats. The Republicans will get still more of the blame since it is clear that they will drag solutions as long as possible thanks to being beholden to fossil fuel companies and holding the idiot ball. Historically speaking, it will be like when the Republicans stuck with prohibition solutions way beyond their expatriation date. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/94 "2019-02-09T23:37:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If nothing else happens, having a member of congress with a large audience calling for this kind of thing shifts the Overton Window, which has been flying to the right this last decade or so because of the sheer mass of right wing demagoguery. Of course, to be a bit of a stickler, I have to point out here that this is not an issue that should depend on partisanship, how it became a partizan issue in weaponized form was reported By Frontline back in 2012: > **[Climate of Doubt | FRONTLINE](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/climate-of-doubt/?)** > > FRONTLINE explores the massive shift in public opinion on climate change. > [@](#): > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: [voice-over] This is what they fear, what happened in 2010 to six-term South Carolina Congressman Bob Inglis, a Republican who once thought he was a safe incumbent in his solidly red state. > > BOB INGLIS (R), Fmr. Congressman, South Carolina: You know, I’m pretty conservative fellow. I got a 93 American Conservative Union rating, 100 percent Christian Coalition, 100 percent National Right to Life, A with the NRA, zero with the ADA, Americans for Democratic Action, a liberal group, and 23 by some mistake with the AFL-CIO. I demand a recount. I wanted a zero. > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: But Inglis does accept the scientific consensus on global warming and favors legislation to curb the effects of CO2 in the atmosphere. He faced a Tea Party rebellion in his primary. > > BOB INGLIS: I had a big tent gathering in Spartanberg County, a bunch of Republicans underneath a great big tent. Comes a question to me, “Yes or no, do you believe in human causation on climate change?” Well, I had a bad habit of answering questions, so I said yes. Boo, hiss, comes the crowd. I was blasted out from underneath the tent. And so— I mean, there were a couple of hundred, 300 people there. I mean, it was intense. > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: He was pounded in commercials and on talk radio. > > BOB INGLIS: It became an oft-repeated theme on talk radio, and that is a major source of information, of course, for Republican primary voters. They were hearing, “Inglis has left the reservation. He’s over there somewhere with Al Gore.” > > So how are things around here? > > STORE OWNER: Slow. The economy’s way off and— > > BOB INGLIS: When you get the financial collapse going, that’s what made it possible for some well-spent money to blow doubt into the science because, you know, the bankers failed us, the federal government is failing us, it’s spending too much money, and these scientists who are funded by that federal government, they’re probably in it, too. And besides, they’re godless liberals. > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: Inglis was defeated. > > MYRON EBELL, Competitive Enterprise Institute: Bob Inglis was defeated in a Republican primary 79 to 21 percent. Now, how many times has an incumbent who isn’t in prison or facing a prison sentence lost his own primary by 79 to 21 percent? This was overwhelming. But what’s happened is— > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: [on camera] The smile on your face suggests, “Man, we won one.” > > MYRON EBELL: Of course we won one! > > Rep. BOB INGLIS: We’re on the record. And our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren are going to read— > > JOHN HOCKENBERRY: This climate hearing in the lame duck Congress was Inglis’s last. > > Rep. BOB INGLIS: Your child is sick, 98 doctors say treat him this way, two say, “No, this other is the way to go.” I’ll go with the two. You’re taking a big risk with those kids. > > Rep. JAMES SENSENBRENNER: That was a very key factor in 10 to 15 congressional districts in the 2010 election, where strong supporters of climate change legislation ended up being defeated. > > Sen. JOHN KERRY: And there’s nothing like a loss in an election to promote fear in the survivors. And that’s exactly what happened in the United States Congress. The Democrats winning the House was one important piece to start countering the fall into ignorance. And sorry for the ones that complain about videos, but that documentary is needed to be seen ([or read the transcript](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/climate-of-doubt/transcript/)) by the ones that are not aware of how corporations and interest groups discredited even business solutions to the issue like cap-n-trade, and led groups like the tea party into twisting the GOP into a willful ignorant party. And how the GOP became and remains the weakest link for many of the solutions that are being proposed. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/95 "2019-02-10T05:57:40Z")
Anyway, her voters obviously knew about her beliefs when they voted for her, so she’s saying exactly what they want to hear. That’s being a politician! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/96 "2019-02-10T15:52:41Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > You must not be aware of the issue at hand in full, we will all lose. Not just Democrats. The Republicans will get still more of the blame since it is clear that they will drag solutions as long as possible thanks to being beholden to fossil fuel companies and holding the idiot ball. Historically speaking, it will be like when the Republicans stuck with prohibition solutions way beyond their expatriation date. Darn the auto fill, that is not supposed to be expatriation, but **expiration** date. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/97 "2019-02-10T15:53:04Z")
Ah, shit. I just called her “AOC” over in the “Trump Twitter” thread. Also, maybe it’s time to change the title of THIS thread, because only about 10% of the posts have been about the Green New Deal. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/98 "2019-02-10T16:45:26Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Ah, shit. I just called her “AOC” over in the “Trump Twitter” thread. > > Also, maybe it’s time to change the title of THIS thread, because only about 10% of the posts have been about the Green New Deal. …he says, after 7 consecutive posts on GND. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/99 "2019-02-10T21:01:19Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > In case anybody cares, early polling of the Green New Deal is pretty damn positive: [https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/421765-poll-majorities-of-both-parties-support-green-new-deal](https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/421765-poll-majorities-of-both-parties-support-green-new-deal) December 17? Thats pretty early all right. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/100 "2019-02-10T21:06:42Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I just don’t like the word ‘podcast’. Very tinny. > > And my internet is shit. I’ll get you a nice speaker for your birthday great-granda. if you can stay alive that long sheeesh, I kid i kid. Just snarking. I dont know you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160.md?page=6)