# AOC's "Green New Deal" pipe dream **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2019, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160 "2019-02-08T08:48:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/121 "2019-02-11T22:31:35Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, it is [clueless](https://www.npr.org/2019/02/07/691997301/rep-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-releases-green-new-deal-outline) [crackpottery](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1093644987256909824.html) that rivals Trump’s “land a man on Mars by next Tuesday” proposal in it’s disconnect from reality. Let’s replace every building in the country! And build new railroads everywhere. But–you know–do it carbon-neuturally! Get rid of all fossil fuels and also cows! The rails are already there, currently used mostly for freight. Many of the old passenger train stations still exist. The high speed locomotives and passenger cars would need to be procured. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/122 "2019-02-11T22:41:33Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > The rails are already there, currently used mostly for freight. Many of the old passenger train stations still exist. The high speed locomotives and passenger cars would need to be procured. Freight trains are, as you hopefully know, the most environmentally responsible way to transport goods. Current rules give them priority over passenger trains. Hard to see how that could continue to be true with a massive increase in use for passengers (which I would support BTW: I love Amtrak). I just don’t think your plan to simply pile all these trains on the extant tracks is going to work. Not to mention that there are lots of places in the middle of the country that are inconveniently far away from any train tracks. > [@Eonwe](#): > > What do you mean “centuries”? Whatever, “over a century”, since the Industrial Revolution began. More than just “decades”, is my point. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/123 "2019-02-11T23:12:36Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh right, you’re one of those stupid denialist fuckwits who insists that if we bury our heads in the sand everything will be fine despite all available evidence. Fuck you. Fuck you and everything you stand for. Your kids will curse your name. An old article (06/2017) that I’m sure has been posted in some thread: **[Why don’t Christian conservatives worry about climate change? God.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/06/02/why-dont-christian-conservatives-worry-about-climate-change-god/?utm_term=.942122cfc4b3)** _A key bloc of Trump’s supporters think solving the problem is out of human hands._ > [@](#): > > The United States will withdraw from the Paris agreement on climate change, President Trump announced Thursday. Environmental scientists say the consequences could be catastrophic for the planet. But for some Trump supporters, there’s no reason to worry. > > “As a Christian, I believe that there is a creator in God who is much bigger than us,” Rep. Tim Walberg (R-Mich.) told constituents last week at a town hall in Coldwater, Mich. “And I’m confident that, if there’s a real problem, he can take care of it.” > > Among conservative evangelicals, that is not an unusual opinion. Nearly all evangelicals — 88 percent, according to the Pew Research Center on Religion & Public Life — believe in miracles, suggesting a faith in a proactive God. And only 28 percent of evangelicals believe human activity is causing climate change. Confidence that God will intervene to prevent people from destroying the world is one of the strongest barriers to gaining conservative evangelical support for environmental pacts like the Paris agreement. See? We don’t need to bury our heads in the sand. No. We just need to look up to heaven! :smack: It gets better: > [@](#): > > When scientists began sounding the alarm over climate change in the 1980s, conservative evangelicals, who had been somewhat accepting of environmentalism in the 1970s, became convinced that the Antichrist would use the fear of climate change to seize power. > > … > > Economic conservatives downplayed the science or even argued that global warming wasn’t actually happening, and premillennialists like Texe Marrs seized on such arguments to accuse environmentalists of perpetuating a hoax in the service of the Antichrist. > > … > > For Christians like Walberg, globalism is the most dire threat to the United States, not rising oceans and more powerful hurricanes. Just as conservative evangelicals opposed arms treaties during the Cold War, they see environmental pacts, like the Paris agreement, as paving the way for a charismatic world leader to form a global government and begin the seven-year Tribulation that precedes the Second Coming of Christ. Hal Lindsey in 2015 denounced climate change as a scam “being used to consolidate the governments of the world into a coalition that may someday facilitate the rise of the Antichrist.” > > Trump’s anti-globalism was part of what made him attractive to conservative evangelicals in last year’s Republican primaries and the general election — and still now as president. Even if Trump’s personal life is an affront to Christian values, his message means that the United States will be standing against the potential forces of the Antichrist. Reject the Antichrist! Only Trump can save the world! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2019, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/124 "2019-02-11T23:18:16Z")
Yeah, that relates to me (a hardcore atheist and fierce opponent of Trump) real well. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/125 "2019-02-12T00:16:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Yeah, that relates to me (a hardcore atheist and fierce opponent of Trump) real well. :rolleyes: I wasn’t referring to you, specifically, but commenting on certain people who don’t think immediate action is needed. Particularly, those who think God will fix it, so why worry about it. Those are the people you should roll your eyes at. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/126 "2019-02-12T00:52:55Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I wasn’t referring to you, specifically Then why did you quote a post attacking me very specifically, including the part about how my kids “will curse [my] name”? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/127 "2019-02-12T00:57:51Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Then why did you quote a post attacking me very specifically, including the part about how my kids “will curse [my] name”? :dubious: My bad. The “bury your head in the sand” part caught my eye and reminded me of the article about how God is going to fix climate change. I don’t think a person could bury their head any further. Although, it’s probably more accurate to say they have their heads buried up Trump’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/128 "2019-02-12T01:11:00Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/129 "2019-02-12T01:57:48Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Fair enough. More than fair, really. **dasmoocher** compares you to idiots who have faith in an authority (however moronically interpreted or poorly referenced or ahistorically understood) outside of themselves. You, on the other hand, only evidence faith in your own moronic, poor and ahistoric understanding. You’re being given slack you can’t earn by a username and poorly reasoned posts. Be more grateful to accidental allies, dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/130 "2019-02-12T04:01:32Z")
Xenophon apparently can’t see the irony in those comments, directed at someone who is almost certainly to the left of the median voter on environmental issues. Maybe, as I already suggested to BPC, s/he should consider reevaluating who does or does not qualify as an environmental “ally”. As Mark Shields is fond of saying, effective politics involves expanding one’s tent and seeking converts, rather than looking to denounce and expel apostates. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/131 "2019-02-12T04:44:06Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Xenophon apparently can’t see the irony in those comments, directed at someone who is almost certainly to the left of the median voter on environmental issues. Maybe, as I already suggested to BPC, s/he should consider reevaluating who does or does not qualify as an environmental “ally”. As Mark Shields is fond of saying, effective politics involves expanding one’s tent and seeking converts, rather than looking to denounce and expel apostates. :dubious: Nah, you are not an apostate, just a bit ignorant. Again, although you do get very upset, what I have seen from your posts is that you are not relying on what scientists and sources that environmental allies are using nowadays. You really look like if you are constantly falling for fake science and fake “middle of the road” talking points similar from the ones coming from “graduates” of Prager “University”. [An investigation of Bjorn Lomborg’s claims.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwMPFDqyfrA) > [@](#): > > Like most Prager University courses, as they’re called, this is basically just a five minute video presented here by Bjorn Lomborg: “Do electric cars really help the environment? President Obama > thinks so, so does Leonardo DiCaprio and many others…” > > But since the physics of car emissions is a scientific issue, not a political or a thespian one isn’t the more important point that scientists think so. [Ding!] > > The energy efficiency of cars is not based on the beliefs of left-wing actors and politicians but meticulous scientific studies, so instead of watching the unequal fight of Lomborg taking on obama and DiCaprio let’s put him in the ring with some actual scientific research and see how his claims stand up to scrutiny. Spoiler alert: His claims are shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Batano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b487fb/32.png) [@Batano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batano)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/132 "2019-02-12T06:01:54Z")
I think the right way to address AGW is through “pull” not “push”. Let’s have a moon shot that addresses better batteries to store power when wind and solar are not providing enough power for the demand, new nuclear power designs that are fail-safe, and increased solar cell efficiencies. Back that up with making a better electric grid so we can distribute the power. When green energy is cheaper than carbon-based energy people will use it. It’s like electric cars: they used to be glorified golf carts now they are the quickest cars on the road. Electric motors have full torque at low speeds, so are ideal for pickups and other trucks. It won’t be long until the bubbas are bragging about pulling stumps with their electric pickup trucks. We can do this in the same way that Trump pulled in his support. Make America the THE LEADER in green technology. The first, the best, the innovators. Tell them we are going t make Saudi Arabia’s oil reserves worthless. Telling people we are going to tax the hell out of gasoline isn’t going to build support. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/133 "2019-02-12T06:26:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Xenophon apparently can’t see the irony in those comments, directed at someone who is almost certainly to the left of the median voter on environmental issues. Maybe, as I already suggested to BPC, s/he should consider reevaluating who does or does not qualify as an environmental “ally”. Oh good, you’re back to “Hey I’m on your side really” as a defense. You’ve stated that you’re a racist, that you don’t believe that climate change is a big deal, that colonialism wasn’t really that bad and that universal healthcare cannot work in America. I think people can decide for themselves whether you’re an “ally” or not. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/134 "2019-02-12T06:41:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Spoiler alert: His claims are shitty. Zat so? How about this claim? > **[It’s time to stop subsidizing fossil fuels](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/its-time-to-stop-subsidizing-fossil-fuels/article24002168/)** > > Thanks to plummeting oil prices, it is now easier to reduce the subsidies needed to guarantee regulated consumer prices > [@](#): > > Our analysis by economists Isabel Galiana and Amy Sopinka shows that phasing out subsidies for fossil fuels would be a phenomenal target. It will slash waste, reduce inequality, and cut CO2 emissions. The economists estimate that every dollar spent (you still need to help the most vulnerable to energy access) will create benefits for society and the environment of more than $15. The billions of dollars that governments could save from phasing out fossil fuel subsidies could be spent on providing better health, education and nutrition, which could benefit hundreds of millions of people. ETA: Batano, agree with most of that. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/135 "2019-02-12T06:45:55Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Oh good, you’re back to “Hey I’m on your side really” as a defense. > > You’ve stated that you’re a racist, that you don’t believe that climate change is a big deal, that colonialism wasn’t really that bad and that universal healthcare cannot work in America. I think people can decide for themselves whether you’re an “ally” or not. One distortion, one flat out lie, the rest is wildly exaggerated. Basically, a whole lot of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/136 "2019-02-12T09:15:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > One distortion, one flat out lie, the rest is wildly exaggerated. Basically, a whole lot of bullshit. “You’ve stated that you’re a racist” > [@Black Panther movie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie/809075/399): > > I openly admit to a certain type of racism. “you don’t believe that climate change is a big deal” > [@Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/612): > > Climate change is real, it’s caused by human actions, and it’s really NBD in the grand scheme of things. “colonialism wasn’t really that bad” > [@Black Panther movie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie/809075/213): > > anticolonialists have painted a black-and-white image of the legacy of colonial rule when the truth includes a lot of grey. There was a great deal of advancement of the economy and infrastructure that the British Empire left behind when it voluntarily surrendered rule of its African colonies, including my country of birth Kenya. “universal healthcare cannot work in America” > [@Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/552): > > it strikes me as essentially impossible to imagine that something like this could be created in the U.S., due to political and economic hurdles. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/137 "2019-02-12T09:31:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Zat so? How about this claim? > > [https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/its-time-to-stop-subsidizing-fossil-fuels/article24002168/](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/its-time-to-stop-subsidizing-fossil-fuels/article24002168/) Now this is like debating by staw men. That was not the most important claim that science writer Peter Hadfielf (aka Potholer54) dealt with in the cited video. And now you seem to have an attachment to defend[a sorry guy like Lomborg,](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2015/08/bjorn-lomborg-just-a-scientist-with-a-different-opinion/) (confirming who your sources are). You seem to not be aware that contrarians do the ‘blind squirrel finding a nut’ act to mislead guys like you. IOW, seen that before from him. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/138 "2019-02-12T12:45:20Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > “You’ve stated that you’re a racist” Let’s look at the sentence you quoted in context: > [@Black Panther movie](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/black-panther-movie/809075/399): > > I openly admit to a certain type of racism. But it is a paternalistic one. I don’t at all understand racists who hate black people, call them vulgar names, want to subjugate them as farm or domestic workers, or favor separatism. > > I’m going to guess your “I’m not a racist, but…” acquaintances wouldn’t agree with my list of favorite presidents, and would not share my support for reparations for slavery. Said presidents being Obama, Grant, and LBJ. :dubious: But as I said, only one flat out lie. Here it is: > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > “universal healthcare cannot work in America” Ahem. > [@Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/500): > > I’m \*not \*adamant that we can’t have a universal health care entitlement here. I believe it is a human rights imperative that we do. > [@Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/380): > > We need to do better by our citizens and make access to health care universal. But we need to stop saying Canada is the model to follow. It is not. How about France instead? > [@Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, on How to Pay for Medicare for All](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ms-ocasio-cortez-on-how-to-pay-for-medicare-for-all/825514/422): > > I already stated it several times upthread: I would push for a universal HDHP/HSA entitlement. […] > Ideally I’d also like to end the tax exemption for health plans, but that’s probably not feasible due to the power of the top 20 percent, as I also noted upthread. I’ll be over here holding my breath awaiting your retraction. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/139 "2019-02-12T12:55:33Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Let’s look at the sentence you quoted in context: > > Said presidents being Obama, Grant, and LBJ. :dubious: That you still believe any of this excuses your racism shows how profoundly ignorant you are of what racism actually is, and how and why it’s harmful. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2019, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160/140 "2019-02-12T12:57:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And now you seem to have an attachment to defend[a sorry guy like Lomborg,](http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2015/08/bjorn-lomborg-just-a-scientist-with-a-different-opinion/) That’s it: the gay Scandinavian vegetarian who wants to end fossil fuel subsidies is the REAL enemy! :smack: Never mind all those fatcats in Texas and Oklahoma: you’ve got apostasy to root out, so your faction can be pure as the driven snow. Never mind if that might make it something less than a majority coalition: you can be smug in your moral superiority, above reproach and above the fray, while others actually run everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aocs-green-new-deal-pipe-dream/829160.md?page=8)