# Apologizing for Slavery. Does it matter? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570 "2005-06-02T17:03:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/81 "2005-06-03T15:17:24Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > \*\* Contrapuntal\*\* Why would it be so wrong, if you met a person, who I don’t know… think of a reason, life turned out badly because of something your spouse did when she was ten years old; to say, you’re sorry their life turned out so badly? What harm does it do to the fabric of society to look at situation that you’re kinda connected to, and admit that they got the short end of the stick, even if you weren’t the one who poked 'em in the eye with it? > > Why are you guys fighting this so hard…? I don’t think it would be wrong. I think it would be meaningless. I am not sure that commiseration=apology. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/82 "2005-06-03T15:20:23Z")
I just thought of this. My grandfather was a drunk who used to beat my grandmother. They are both dead. Anybody want to offer a meaningful apology to a concerned party? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/83 "2005-06-03T15:20:24Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > \*\* Contrapuntal\*\* Why would it be so wrong, if you met a person, who I don’t know… think of a reason, life turned out badly because of something your spouse did when she was ten years old; to say, you’re sorry their life turned out so badly? What harm does it do to the fabric of society to look at situation that you’re kinda connected to, and admit that they got the short end of the stick, even if you weren’t the one who poked 'em in the eye with it? > > Why are you guys fighting this so hard…? I guess I make a distinction between expressing sorrow and offering an apology. I’m sorry your grandmother has cancer - as aposed to: I apologize for your grandma getting cancer. Certainly I can express sorrow and show that I think it is a bad thing. But apologizing implies responsibility, as I have said before. It does no harm btw, the question in the OP is: Does it matter? Nope, it doesn’t matter. Because it is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/84 "2005-06-03T15:24:37Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Does the law not impose it’s will by force? Would Wachovia had taken this step without said law? It surely had plenty ample opportunity before the law was passed. Police and regulatory agencies to not enforce the law until there has been established non-compliance. There’s no proof so far of direct coercion by Chicago officials and Wachovia. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/85 "2005-06-03T15:24:58Z")
I’m pretty sure a some of my ancestors owned slaves. I’m troubled and deeply sorry for that. Ironically, the one that fought in the Civil War for the Confederacy, my great-great grandfather, did not own slaves. I have no idea who the people were or anything. I do know that there are quite a few African-Americans who share my last name, and I’m pretty sure that’s where it came from. Even more troubling is the fact that up until my father, who was liberal, my ancestors were racist like many Southerners (and Northerners) of the day. So yeah, folks who think the whole slavery/segregation/racism thing was all tied up in a neat package in the 50s and 60s have their heads in the sand. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/86 "2005-06-03T15:27:12Z")
Oh, and I think apologizing is just fine. Letting your fellow human beings know you care is free, but priceless. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/87 "2005-06-03T15:33:16Z")
I guess this is a matter of perception then. I didn’t see the apology has an admittence of guilt or responsibility, but as being sorry/sorrowful that their company had ties to slavery… at least that’s how i read it. YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/88 "2005-06-03T15:34:03Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I just thought of this. My grandfather was a drunk who used to beat my grandmother. They are both dead. Anybody want to offer a meaningful apology to a concerned party? I’m genuinely sorry to hear that there was domestic violence in your grandparents’ lives. My own mother had to leave my stepfather and a later boyfriend because they couldn’t live in a civil household without physical violence and abusive arguing. My own grandfather struggled with alcoholism for decades which robbed him of his artistic talent. It was wrong and I think any difficulties your family may have suffered because of this was unnecessary. It was a moral failing and it was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/89 "2005-06-03T15:38:55Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > You know, maybe the Federal Government should issue some sort of apology. I take it this one apology would be acceptable and then we could forget all about making companies apologize for what happened and move on to more substantial issues. Anyone really think an apology is going to set race relations right? Does it say something about how far we’ve come in civil rights that we can bitch about such a non-issue? > > Marc No, it won’t set race relations right, but it might be the first step. I think you have to admit a problem exists, and define the scope before you can truly work on solving it. The reluctance of many to even begin those first two steps shows what little progress we’ve made in this area. The fact that people have a problem with a company (they have no stake in) apologizing for its admitted ties to slavery is pretty amazing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/90 "2005-06-03T15:51:15Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Police and regulatory agencies to not enforce the law until there has been established non-compliance. There’s no proof so far of direct coercion by Chicago officials and Wachovia. Oh please you are being disingenuous here. It is a city ordinance. Non-compliance results in voiding of the city contract. The threat of force = force as far as coercion is concerned. _3 : to bring about by force or threat \ synonym see FORCE_ I appreciate your sentiments about my family. I am not sure that constitute a meaningful apology, but thanks for the thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/91 "2005-06-03T16:02:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > First, I’m not conceding that what I said was incorrect. I made the statement I made because I don’t want to get caught up on such a minor point. Second, the difference between direct and indirect profiting is pretty clear. Minor point or not methinks a citation is in order. And just to be clear, are you suggesting that indirectly profiting from slavery is hunky dory? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/92 "2005-06-03T16:13:09Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Minor point or not methinks a citation is in order. And just to be clear, are you suggesting that indirectly profiting from slavery is hunky dory? Citation for what? I’m not saying that indirect profiting is hunky dory, just that the level of responsibility is different. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/93 "2005-06-03T16:16:20Z")
Originally stated by **brickbacon:** > [@](#): > > No, it won’t set race relations right, but it might be the first step. I think you have to admit a problem exists, and define the scope before you can truly work on solving it. The reluctance of many to even begin those first two steps shows what little progress we’ve made in this area. The fact that people have a problem with a company (they have no stake in) apologizing for its admitted ties to slavery is pretty amazing to me. That amazes me too, **brickbacon**. If folks were shareholders or big muckety-mucks in Wachovia, I might understand the concern about exposing the company to liability and all that. But… what harm does it do? I recall **Askia’s** previous statement that the apology’s worth is in the eye of the apologee. Personally it doesn’t change my life in any significant way, but I do feel a little better knowing that Wachovia, as a corporation, spent some time looking into their own history and have at least nominally acknowledged that it wasn’t purely through honest means. Some might gnash their teeth and carry on about how it is meaningless, but if it is meaningful for anyone who is aggrieved about the history of how corporations profited from the free labor of others, it’s a good thing. I respectfully suggest that if you feel this has absolutely no meaning or bearing on your life, respect the fact that it may have meaning and bearing on someone else’s. I find it amusing that there’s an assumption that African Americans have forgotten about slavery or Jim Crow, and this apology from Wachovia is going to unearth a lot of settled memories. First, as several people in this thread have stated, racial discrimination still exists. Unfortunately legal remedies don’t have the effect of turning a spigot off. Plenty of stuff is still leaking out. Furthermore, it’s clearly on the minds of a lot of White Americans too. Several folks have pointed to their lack of slave-owning in their families, or in some cases, acknowledged that their forebearers did own slaves. For some reason it seems that people are assuming that the only aggrieved parties are the descendents of slaves. I’m sure many decent human beings of all backgrounds are pleased to some degree to see a corporate entity acknowledge wrongdoing to a class of people. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/94 "2005-06-03T16:17:32Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Citation for what? I’m not saying that indirect profiting is hunky dory, just that the level of responsibility is different. Citation for Wachovia owning slaves. Does the responsibility level of indirect profiting being different mean less, or just not the same? If less, does it fall below the level of requiring an apology? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/95 "2005-06-03T16:21:43Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Some might gnash their teeth and carry on about how it is meaningless,. Can you show where anyone has done so in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/96 "2005-06-03T16:25:22Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Citation for Wachovia owning slaves. > > Does the responsibility level of indirect profiting being different mean less, or just not the same? If less, does it fall below the level of requiring an apology? They admitted that companies they acquired owed slaves. I feel the act of acquiring these companies makes them responsible for their actions as well. You may disagree with the last part, but the first part is why they issued the apology. I don’t know what you want a cite for. It may or may not be less. It is specific to the situation. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/97 "2005-06-03T16:27:31Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > I guess this is a matter of perception then. I didn’t see the apology has an admittence of guilt or responsibility, but as being sorry/sorrowful that their company had ties to slavery… at least that’s how i read it. Me, too. Just as I can be grateful that certain things in history happened, I can feel regret that other things happened. And when I feel regret, even if I didn’t cause it, I can honestly and legitimately apologize. I can express my sorrow and horror and, with my apology, make it clear that not only do I know that the events were wrong, but that I would not accept them today. 99% of my ancestors came to the US after the Civil War. I feel, however, that I can guarantee some of them were rotten bastards and racist to the teeth. (I do have a murderer in the fambly. Oh joy.) My apology is offered to anyone who wants it, really. If someone rejects it, I can’t help that. I can’t control history, but I can control my own relationship to it. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/98 "2005-06-03T16:31:02Z")
**Contrapuntal.** You’re welcome for my thoughts. I assure you they were genuine. I wasn’t trying to be disingenuous earlier, I was trying to point out a subtle difference between true coercion (the threat/promise of force preceding actions and actual action taken to force compliance with a law) and the law as it’s generally applied. A rule or law by itself does not and cannot coerce by merely existing. It can warn. It can spell out consequences. But it takes another entity to actually bring to bear coercive force to a corporation or individual… so unless some actual living entity is involved, like civil attorneys or prosecutors or the police, it’s not coercion… yet. So until you can show me that Wachovia responded to some sort of citation by Chicago authorities, I’ll continue to believe their statement was not coerced. BTW, the article only states that business ties to slavery needed to be disclosed: an apology isn’t a requirement. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/99 "2005-06-03T16:32:50Z")
> [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > For some reason it seems that people are assuming that the only aggrieved parties are the descendents of slaves. I’m sure many decent human beings of all backgrounds are pleased to some degree to see a corporate entity acknowledge wrongdoing to a class of people. I’m not even a first generation North American so my involvement with slavery is non existant. In fact, I’ve got a pogrom or two I’d like to discuss with somebody from the pre and post communist Russian regimes. When’s my day in court? :dubious: Never the less… I am left wondering if any of this discussion would have taken place if the law requiring disclosure of ties to slavery wasn’t inacted. Being that is was a legal requirement, how genuine could this apology really be? Despite the fact that the individual(s) responsible for crafting it are quite sincere in their sentiments and society at large really does believe that slavery is abhorent. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570/100 "2005-06-03T16:44:07Z")
Look, how about everybody apologizes to everyone else for the terrible things that their ancestors probably did to other people’s ancestors, and which they may today be reaping the profits of? I’ll start–I hereby apologize sincerely to anyone who feels they have directly or indirectly suffered from oppressive or barbaric acts of my thousands upon thousands of ancestors, of whom I have met exactly three, all of whom have been dead for the past thirty years. Does anyone feel better for that apology? If so, I have accomplished a great deal today, at little cost to my dignity. I simply don’t feel that the above statement alone means very much to anyone, but I may be wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apologizing-for-slavery-does-it-matter/306570.md?page=6)