Apostates: what made you lose your religion?

Thanks (to all who commented) and I agree with your assessment entirely regarding the journey to Postmodernism.

Interesting side note: Yesterday I was visiting one of my favorite hangouts and another of the regulars, a man who I know to be a pretty liberal-minded Christian, called me over to talk. We had talked before about religion and so he knew something of my past and my current beliefs. So he handed me a napkin with some writing on it, and said, “This is the $64,000 question.” The question on the napkin: “If Jesus Christ were to walk into this bar right now, what one question would you want to ask him?” He then said we should talk some more sometime, but he already had some beers, and he wanted to be sharp, “because steel sharpens steel.” So I took the napkin, said goodbye, and walked out. I’m going to write a question for him for my return trip, but I may need to use a roll of paper towels instead of a cocktail napkin, if the length of my previous posts are any indication…

All of the choices are not equally valid. You can choose to to believe something that is demostrably not true, but that’s foolish.

Like most fads, postmodernism starts with a valuable insight, that your opinions need to be examined from time to time, and then carries that insight to extremes.

No malice intended. I took it as IMHO. It seemed to me that rather than explain how your beliefs changed {the OP}which was fairly brief, the bulk of your post was about everybody elses beliefs. When YHO ends in something as strong as “all religious belief is bunk” then you can expect an equally strong response. All in MHO as well

Many can. You mention three extremists and I realize there are others. The people I’m referring to are those who may stubbornly cling to certain fundamentalist beliefs but be more liberal and tolerant in other areas. Humanity and it’s attitudes are not so clearly or easily separated. The lines you draw are oversimplified.

Here’s where I think our definitions of tolerance differ. I don’t have to agree with their beliefs to be tolerant of them as human beings. I can strongly disagree and take a stand against certain beliefs and still strive to be tolerant of the human being that holds that belief. It is the recognition of our own flaws and the fact that as we choose what we believe we know we have much yet to learn, that we can tolerate and be inclusive of the humanity and weaknesses and beliefs of others even while we are in disagreement and conflict. We strive not only to be tolerant but by doing so to encourage tolerance in others. To free them and ourselves from the lie of “I can only be right by others being wrong”

It wouldn’t do the discussion any good for me to explain my “all life is a spiritual journey” theory. I’ll deal with this in my comments about your next response to me.

I see your point and agree to an extent. Yet IMHO even trying to stop the volcano from erupting is one step along the journey. In the same way I see the early myths of flying men a step to the actual flight. It only seems foolish from a certain perspective. Just as our nation once supported slavery, or suppressed woman’s rights, so from our “progressive” viewpoint we see other countries as backwards. Too easily we forget that we once had to walk that same path. The same principle applies to the spiritual journey. We can take a stand against certain hateful beliefs without malice {or try hard} knowing that we as humans once walked that path. In another thread months ago someone was incredibly pissed at me for declaring that the statement “I hate those fucking bigots” is itself bigotry. It’s a similar principle. That’s why tolerance for the intolerant is IMO a worthy goal.

I understand your point here as well. Yes people do worship stuff. We all do to some extent as we choose what is most valuable to us. As I said some worship their own pet theories. Even as I wrote that bit of sarcasm I recognized that I am as guilty of that as anyone.
IMO the spiritual journey is choosing what we value and how those choices direct our actions. So the individual journey is as varied as concepts of God. Also, I don’t think the spiritual journey is limited to one physical lifetime so , while it may be irrelevant to our discussion, I see even those who worship stuff right now as being in a part of their journey.

I can’t agree with this. Even many fundamentalists who claim Jesus is the only way and the Bible is the divine word of God can still admit that they are imperfect men doing the best they can. The fact of intolerance among those who claim to worship a God of love and truth is a testimony to the imperfection of mankind. I’m sure my beliefs would be considered blasphemy by some but I don’t agree that this is a form of intolerance on my part simply because I don’t agree.

I feel strongly that what I try to describe as tolerance is a crucial ingredient for mankind. That may be why your take on it prompted such a response from me. Obviously our views on what tolerance means are quite different.

[QUOTE]

Again, we disagree on what tolerance is. The kind of tolerance I speak of is what Jesus spoke of when he said “Love your enimies” You don’t have to agree with their beliefs to tolerate them. You can share your beliefs and strive for something better. You can contend with others without being intolerant .

I had to check yours twice to make sure. Funny how that happens so often.

Well then, this whole thing is, in fact, a misunderstanding of what I meant by “tolerant”. I got “theist” wrong too. I should choose my words more wisely I think…

Okay…

Seems to me if your use of tolerance is incorrect then your whole theory about people in option two really being option one, needs some reworking.

To me the word ‘God’ means what exists, or existence; we are all part of a greater whole. I do not believe" A" God has a special religion. I respect every one’s right to believe as they choose unless they use it for harm.

One thing I wonder about is why so many people (like JJimm) think people pray to statues, they pray in front of statues to help them keep their mind on their prayers. It is no different then having a picture or statue of a loved one as a memory of that person.

People believe what ever helps them get through life, that is their right.

Monavis

I literally grew up in the church. Father was a minister and mother should have been. Ex missionaries. From about a week old I was in the church. Every Sunday and every event until I was 18 and moved out. I’ve been to church no more than a dozen times since then.

I got the values but none of the faith. It’s as simple as that. At some point you have to believe and I don’t.

If you don’t mind a personal question, did you feel any guilt about not attending? I know I did and it was a real relief to finally leave it {the guilt}behind.

One thing I wonder about is why so many people think idolatry and iconolatry don’t exist. Sometimes the god is the idol and the idol is the god (or the person).

Is that all? There’s an alternative way to look at that account, which I first read on these very boards. Time after time, the miracles performed by Moses terrified Pharaoh into promising to release the Israelites. Then God removed the terror from Pharaoh and allowed him to make a cool-headed choice. Whereupon Pharaoh exercised his choice and went back on his word. Rinse and repeat. Pharaoh had several opportunities to stand cool-headed by the decision he had made in fear. He refused. He reaped the consequences. You may call God heavy-handed, but if this viewpoint makes any sense, it’s arguable that he is not insane.

Yes, that’s all. I never remember having a lot of that elusive thing called “faith.” My parents told me I was born in Wisconsin, but I have long suspected it was really Missouri.

And all of that speculation about motives and actions is in the Bible, right?

It doesn’t make sense at all. For one thing, it doesn’t say God removed any fear from Pharaoh, it says he “hardened his heart so that he would not let the people go.” There’s nothing in the text to support the interpretation you offer. Every time God hardens Pharaoh’s heart, he’s hardening it against the Israelites. It’s not depicted as an opportunity for a free choice.

I think this kind of interpretation is reaching and unsupportable and founded only on a desire to save the story from being hopelesly contradictory to modern sensibilities.

The other problem (and larger) moral problem with the story is that regardless of Pharaoh’s sins, the retaliatory slaughter of all first born sons in Egypt (even the the children of servants and animals) is sick, pathological and indefensible, full stop.

By the way, why didn’t God just snap his fingers and magically transport the Israelites back to the promised land?

What utter bulshit. Either way you look at that story, God intervened to alter Pharoah’s free will, clearly because he WANTED to do war with the Egyptians and wasn’t done fucking with them yet. After all, if God had wanted to remove the Israealites without bloodshed, he could have struck all the Egyptians blind long enough for the Hebrews to escape, or changed Pharaoh’s mind to compel him to send the Israealites out without a fight.

The God of Exodus is a sadistic monster.

True. Perhaps the more accurate thing to say would be, “All of the choices are suspect in one way or another.”

That part is explained. Since they were raised as slaves, they all had to die so that their children, who grew up in freedom, would be the warriors who would conquer Canaan. This got bound up in the 40 years of wandering, but presumably God knew this ahead of time.
I agree with your take on the heart hardening. It’s astonishing how willing believers are to re-interpret the Bible to resolve these godly immoralities. Some are equally unwilling to reinterpret it to allow behaviors they personally don’t like.

Too bad God lacked the ability to change the hearts and minds of mortals at will.

Oh, wait…

I was brung up Catholic. Very Catholic – I was born pre-Vatican II, and my initial training was in a Church with Latin liturgy, with an altar rail between the Altar and the people, with the Altar facing away. You had to fast three hours before communion, and my parents told us that, in their day, they were told to shut off the water the night before so they wouldn’t inadvertently drink water in the morning before Mass.

I attended Catholic School for eight years. I’m of the last generation of Altar Boys who memorized the Mass in Latin. For a time, I thought I’d be a priest when I grew up.

My disillusionment came in part because of the clear disparity between what I was being told and what I could see. The nuns taught us excellent English Grammar and Math, but terrible Science (although I know that some of them were very good at it), yet the Baltimore Catechism warned us not to take science as the prime teacher of truth. But accepting the representatives of the Faith as prime teachers of truth seemed pretty iffy, given the howlers some of them taught. One of the nuns was a firm believer in psychic Jeanne Dixon, which was a major strike against her, to my mind.

OK, so nuns aren’t necessarily the best sources. But the Baltimore Catechism told us that the existence of God could be proven. Looking into the proofs, I wasn’t convinced, and neuiither, I learned, were a lot of other people. I was also told that the Bible as we had it was inerrantt and faithfully transmitted, but the existence of a great many famous Bible misprints retty clearly disproved that.

In Catholic theology, the Invisible World is carefully measured and parceled out. There are mortal sins and venial sins, actual and sanctifying grace, plenary and partial indulgences, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Sorrowful Mysteries, Stations of the Cross, a plethora of Scapulars nd Medals, legions of saints, and a plan for unducting new saints. there are Seven Sacraments with all their proper ceremony and a procedure for blessing holy water.

at some point, you have to step back and ask “How do they know this?” How come this prayer is good for a partial indulgence of 144 days? Whose idea was this ceremony?

Looking into the origins of much of this isn’t helpful. the Catholic Church has tradition is spades, but a lot of it seems awfully arbitrary and very authoritarian. The more I looked, the more things treated as obviously miraculous seemed also to have more likely (to me) mundane explanations. Miraculous intervention didn’t seem to be a necessity. I found the explanations I’d been given – even the adult ones that you came upon in reading the Doctors of the Church or Catholic Church documents – not convincing anymore.
Besides this, most Catholics I knew didn’t seem terribly interested in any of this. atholics are notoriously bad at Bible reading. The Church doesn’t really encourage it – most people got little snippets at Mass every Sunday, with vast chunks never explored in that way. I didn’t read any books of the Bible through until I got to college. I’ve since read it all on my own.

But even those snippets are too much for some people. I recall in grad school, at the chapel, that the priest , after doing the reading, walked down through the crowd and asked them questions about what he’d just read. Unfortunately, nobody could answer – they obvious hadn’t been paying attention, or else forgot very quickly. In desperation, he looked to me (I was co-chair of the Education Committee at the time), and was relieved that I could reply. I got more tha a little annoyed that these people weren’t paying attention to their one hour of religion a week. I was particularly annoyed when folks like that couldn’t understand any problems I had with belief.

Ultimately, I coul;dn’t in all honesty go to services that required me to publicly state that I believed things that did not, in fact, believe. I don’t like lying. So I quit.

I have nothing against those who sacrifice for others, those who obtain solace from the Church, or who seek it. Their many charitable works do them credit. But cannot attend services whose ultimate purpose seems pointless to me and state that I believe things that I do not.

I lived with an aunt and uncle from the time I was 5 until I was about 8 or so. During that time I went to Baptist church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night and Thursday night (choir practice). Even if I was sick - I was wrapped in a blanket and I went.

I have always been a reader, and I have read the Bible cover to cover several times. One of the first things that started my retreat from organized religion was the fact that when I found something in the Bible that I didn’t understand, I was told not to question.

Then I got old enough to understand the concept of missionaries, and why we had a special offering for them. I was told clearly and repeatedly that even if someone had never heard of God they were going to burn in Hell for not believing in Him.

Huh? (At the time I was too young for WTF?)

It made me start thinking. Did I really want to worship and love God, who would make a little girl just like me burn in Hell because she had never heard of Him? I thought God was supposed to love us all? “…all the little children of the world…”

When I went back to live with my mother (o happy day!) I didn’t attend church much because she didn’t. I had to attend during the summers, because I stayed with on my grandparents farm and they went every Sunday. Not too much of a problem, as I quickly discovered if I was reading my Bible during the sermon, I wouldn’t get in trouble for not paying attention to the racist, bile-spewing, hellfire and brimstone pastor.

I attended services at several other churches for many years, on infrequent occasions. I wanted something to believe in, but every church I attended had something I just couldn’t handle. I really enjoyed Catholic services - the ritual aspect was very soothing to me spiritually - but I could not convince myself that I could obey a church that in effect told me I was a second class citizen because I was female. Celibate priests as marriage counselors? I still can’t wrap my brain around that one.

Now at age 45, I am a sole-practionier Wiccian. I don’t know many others, and none in my area. I have not “come out” as a Pagan to my family, and never will to my grandmother because she’s 96 and I am not going to be responsible for her having a heart attack. I very seldom discuss my religious beliefs with others - it’s kind of weird, but it’s almost more personal than sex.

A person’s religious beliefs are not important to me. Their actions as they affect me and others are much more important. I try not to be judgmental, but if I do judge someone it is based on what they do, not what they believe or don’t believe.

Indeed, There were people who worshiped man made idols but the inference that Catholics(or Buddists etc. pray to statues is not true. Governments,cities etc. put up statues of local heros but it doesn’t mean they are worshipped.

Monavis