# Apostrophe rule concerning words ending in the letter s for ownership? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 21, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682 "2006-04-21T20:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kevlaur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/919ad9/32.png) [@Kevlaur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevlaur)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/1 "2006-04-21T20:27:42Z")
While reading a post concerning the apocryphal books of the Bible, I began wondering why there was an apostrophe s after Jesus. Jesus’s books, for example. Isn’t it Jesus’ books? Or, do both work? I have also seen a lot of the use of the word insure to mean ensure. Are the rules changing? Were they never in effect? Should that be ‘in affect’? Or, are we just getting lazier and letting sleeping dogs’ lie… Gotcha… Kevlaur ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/2 "2006-04-21T20:38:22Z")
> [@Kevlaur](#): > > While reading a post concerning the apocryphal books of the > Bible, I began wondering why there was an apostrophe > s after Jesus. Jesus’s books, for example. > > Isn’t it Jesus’ books? Or, do both work? Generally, the rule is to add the **'s** even after a word ending in _s_: Charles’s book, Ms. Adams’s house. However, as [this page](http://www.write101.com/sample.htm) states: > [@](#): > > Some words sound awkward when an apostrophe ‘s’ is added: > > Jesus’s disciples. > > The accepted form here is to just use the ‘s’ apostrophe: > > Jesus’ disciples. > > N.B. This only applies to names of Biblical or historical significance e.g. Jesus, Moses, Zeus, Demosthenes, Ramses … the rest of us whack in the apostrophe and add an ‘s.’ > > Moses’ followers, Zeus’ priests, Demosthenes’ teachings, Ramses’ pyramid Another example: _Achilles’ heel_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/3 "2006-04-21T20:51:42Z")
There are no “rules”. Well, sure, there are book full of them, but none of them agree, and none of them are “official”. There _are_ “usages”. Both usages are more or less common. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/4 "2006-04-21T21:00:17Z")
This question gets asked so often, maybe it should qualify as a “sticky.” ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/5 "2006-04-21T21:14:01Z")
It would help if there was some consistency. I commute to a station called St James’s Park (that’s in London, England, by the way). Some of the station signs say St James’s Park but others say St James’ Park. For the records, I and the sort of bloke who _always_ adds an apostrophe s for possession where the word ends in s or z or x. ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/6 "2006-04-21T21:22:28Z")
Or maybe I _AM_ the sort of bloke . . . . ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/7 "2006-04-21T22:53:33Z")
The only reasonable rule of thumb I’ve heard is that you should spell it the way you pronounce it. If you pronounce the extra “s” then you should add it. I’ve no idea how “proper” this is, but at least it makes sense (to me). ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/8 "2006-04-21T23:21:54Z")
Most people go by William Strunk’s **The Elements of Style** (later updated by E. B. White and known to those in the writing trade as “Strunk and White.” Strunk’s original text is at [Bartleby.com](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html); on this issue, White only added some elaboration. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/9 "2006-04-21T23:27:52Z")
I question why it’s so “awkward” to have three sibilants in a row, even when separated by vowels, to the point where people feel the need to deform English grammar and make it look Chinese or Navajo. These languages don’t have a genitive or possessive form; they indicate the possessive by simple apposition. Thus in Chinese syntax to express the meaning “the thought of Chairman Mao” they simply say “Chairman Mao thought.” Not “Chairman Mao’s thought.” If I hear someone say “Jesus beatitudes” I feel like I’m hearing someone whose first language is Chinese. I don’t see any problem with pronouncing three sibilants in a row as long as they have vowels in between to separate them. Unless it makes people feel uncomfortable to hiss like air escaping from a leaky tire. But I’m for always using the possessive -'s regardless of the name’s final consonant. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/10 "2006-04-22T00:04:06Z")
I was told that it would be Jesus’s, because Jesus’ implies that the word Jesus is plural-you only put the apostrophe last if you’re talking about a collective, like say, oh, my parents’ house. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/11 "2006-04-22T06:01:43Z")
Then comes the question: what if the word ends in a double “s”? For example, “Courteney Cox played Monica, Ross’s sister, on ‘Friends’.” Is the triple “s” a problem? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/12 "2006-04-22T11:38:10Z")
I was talking about phonetic sounds, not written letters. “Ross’s” contains only two sibilant sounds, and only one of those is actually [s]. There’s a schwa vowel separating them. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/13 "2006-04-22T13:02:42Z")
I love typing “author Andrew Vachss’s book.” Since “Vachss” is pronounced “Vax,” the triple “s” is correct. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/14 "2006-04-22T21:37:48Z")
> [@AWB](#): > > Then comes the question: what if the word ends in a double “s”? For example, “Courteney Cox played Monica, Ross’s sister, on ‘Friends’.” > > Is the triple “s” a problem? Oh, but it gets even more fun if you dip into AP Style (which, admittedly, has some pretty assinine rules). This one deals with common noun possessives, though, which is a little different than your example, but does address the triple “s” issue: > [@](#): > > SINGULAR COMMON NOUNS ENDING IN S: Add _'s_ unless the next word begins with _s_:\*the hostess’s invitation, the hostess’ seat; the witness’s answer, the witness’ story. Of course, AP’s rules on proper nouns are different too. They advocate adding a simple apostrophe after singular proper names ending in “s.” ---
**Author:** ![Lama\_Pacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Lama\_Pacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lama_Pacos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/15 "2006-04-23T02:56:20Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I don’t see any problem with pronouncing three sibilants in a row as long as they have vowels in between to separate them. Unless it makes people feel uncomfortable to hiss like air escaping from a leaky tire. But I’m for always using the possessive -'s regardless of the name’s final consonant. Does anyone actually pronounce posessives without the final sibilant? I write s-final possessives with only the apostrophe, but I pronounce them as expected. I’ve never heard anyone say them otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/16 "2006-04-23T02:59:34Z")
**Lama Pacos** , I first noticed this on “The Jezebel Spirit” from _My Life in the Bush of Ghosts_ by Brian Eno and David Byrne. It included an actual recording of a preacher with perhaps a Southern accent performing an exorcism. I heard him saying “Out! In Jesus name.” No audible trace of a possessive. It looks Chinese like that. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/17 "2006-04-23T03:01:32Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Most people go by William Strunk’s **The Elements of Style** (later updated by E. B. White and known to those in the writing trade as “Strunk and White.” Strunk’s original text is at [Bartleby.com](http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html); on this issue, White only added some elaboration. “Elaboration” like altering Strunk’s writing to conform to the wholly imaginary rule he added about “that” and “which”. That takes a certain amount of balls, you know? He takes his old mentor’s style guide and then decides that the dude’s writing just isn’t up to snuff and corrects it . . . Ahh, prescriptivists . . . y’all are a funny bunch . . . Anyway, I say “Jesus’s”, which leads me to believe that at least in many dialects that form is perfectly grammatical. So I maintain that my writing ought to reflect that. There’s lots of people who have purported to create rules for which singulars ending in sibilants should take “-'s” and which should take a bare apostrophe, but as pointed out above, those rules tend to differ substantially from one another. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/18 "2006-04-23T03:06:38Z")
So if my last name were to end in S, as in Sis then Singular is Sis Singular Possesive is Sis’ Plural Possesive is Sis’s Am I on the right track here or back asswards? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/19 "2006-04-23T04:49:42Z")
_Almost_ all singular possessives are formed by adding _'s_. There are exceptions made for some figures in the Bible and some names of historical significance: _Jesus’ Moses’ Brutus’ Cassius’_ However, if one of my students had chosen to form the singular possessive of these names by adding _'s_, I would not have counted it as incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682/20 "2006-04-23T04:52:05Z")
> [@Nic2004](#): > > So if my last name were to end in S, as in Sis then > Singular is Sis > Singular Possesive is Sis’ > Plural Possesive is Sis’s > > Am I on the right track here or back asswards? Not quite. Using the most common rules quoted (and _not_ the AP Style rules I cited earlier): Singular: Sis S Possessive: Sis’s P Possesive: The Sises’ family vaction [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophe-rule-concerning-words-ending-in-the-letter-s-for-ownership/353682.md?page=2)