# Apostrophes and the plural possessive **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631 "2004-11-08T13:18:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![peedin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peedin/32/14095_2.png) [@peedin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peedin)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/1 "2004-11-08T13:18:13Z")
We are having a friendly discussion at work and nobody can agree on the use of the apostrophe in this phrase: womens health. Should the apostrophe go between the n and the s (women\*\*‘**s health), after the s (womens**’\*\* health) or no apostrophe? Bob’s Guide to the Apostrophe does not address this, and neither Chicago Manual of Style nor Publication Manual of the APA has the answer. And what would be a good, basic grammar book (or website) to have on hand for these types of questions? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/2 "2004-11-08T13:23:30Z")
The correct is “women’s health.” “Women” is a plural noun already, so you just need the 's to make it possessive. The general rule is that plural nouns ending is “s” form the possessive by adding an apostrophe, but plural nouns not ending in “s” add an apostrophe and s. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/3 "2004-11-08T15:06:48Z")
Bob’s Guide? Is that the angry flower one? I love that! I second Reality Chuck’s opinion. This one wasn’t even really difficult. We really had trouble some time ago trying to figure out how to say two McDonald’s restaurants. Two McDonald’ses? Also the question of pluralizing years and abbreviations (e.g. 1960s vs. 1960’s, DVDs vs. DVD’s) hasn’t been fully resolved. I come down on the side of the former, but the New York Times is against me. For possessives ending in s, I like the rule that says spell it as you would pronounce it. If there’s an extra sound, add 's, if not just add '. Examples: For goodness’ sake The Hundred Years’ War but, Greg Charles’s worthless opinions ---
**Author:** ![seosamh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@seosamh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seosamh)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/4 "2004-11-08T15:21:19Z")
But what about one I came across a couple of weeks ago? You don’t really need to know that it is in my Catholic Sunday Missal (“Texts approved for use in England & Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Africa”), nor that it is in the Communion Antiphon for All Saints’ Day. “Happy are they who suffer persecution for **JUSTICE’** sake” “Justice” doesn’t end with S but sounds as if it might. Personally I don’t like it. I always add the apostrophe S no matter what (St James’s Park; Mr Rogers’s Neighbourhood etc). ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/5 "2004-11-08T16:30:16Z")
I swear it’s as if I have a Guardian Post Angel who picks my brain and then posts my questions in advance. I was just reading [this CNN article](http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/08/dean.daughter.ap/index.html), and debated briefly with myself over “women’s injuries” and considered opening a thread, but decided it was correct beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/6 "2004-11-08T16:35:53Z")
Nouns, singular or plural, which do not end in a /-s/ or /-z/ sound, take “-'s” to form the possessive. Singular nouns **nearly always** form the possessive by adding “-'s” even if they end in “-s” already. Exceptions are classical names ending in S, which typically take the lone apostrophe, but which are idiomatic in their English usage, some taking “-'s” and some merely an apostrophe: _Achilles’ heel_ but _Sophocles’s tragedies._ Plural nouns ending in a /-s/ or /-z/ sound **generally** form the possessive by adding an apostrophe without an additional “s,” but there are exceptions. The Jacobean usage of “justice’ sake” and the quasi-French “chateaux’ roof styles” are cases where the /s/ and /z/ sounds are represented by other letters than “s.” One extremely useful rule in deciphering where to use “-'s” and where the naked apostrophe is whether the possessive adds an /-iz/\* sound to the word as spoken. Thus “Mr. Jones’s house” ends in a /-ziz/ sound not present in the non-possessive form, which ends in a /-onz/ sound, and therefore takes the “-'s”. However, “going over to the Joneses’ to borrow a cup of sugar” is a case where the nominative/objective and the possessive are pronounced identically, and hence takes a naked apostrophe to indicate possession (the Joneses’ _house_ being implied in the colloquial construction). When an additional /-iz/ sound is added in speech to suggest the possessive, use the “-'s” and where not, use the bare apostrophe. - Technically, the “i” here is incorrect, as in phonetic representations within slashes, it represents the “i” of machine, and the “English short I” of /-iz/ should be represented by a small capital I in proper phonetic respelling. You will kindly forgive my not wanting to try to code that repeatedly, and take the “i” as representing it for purposes of this post. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/7 "2004-11-08T16:47:26Z")
> [@seosamh](#): > > But what about one I came across a couple of weeks ago? > > You don’t really need to know that it is in my Catholic Sunday Missal (“Texts approved for use in England & Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Africa”), nor that it is in the Communion Antiphon for All Saints’ Day. > > “Happy are they who suffer persecution for **JUSTICE’** sake” > > “Justice” doesn’t end with S but sounds as if it might. > > Personally I don’t like it. I always add the apostrophe S no matter what (St James’s Park; Mr Rogers’s Neighbourhood etc). There are traditional exceptions like this advocated by many styleguides. For example _conscience’ sake_, _appearance’ sake_, and _rightousness’ sake_). Personally, I have never seen this rule applied to “justice’s sake.” In your example, I always hear the possessive-s pronounced, while in the other examples it’s skipped over. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2004, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/8 "2004-11-08T16:49:11Z")
Actually, now that I think about it, I think I have heard it pronounced as if the possessive-s weren’t there. So I suppose “justice’ sake” can be an acceptable spelling. ---
**Author:** ![jgroub](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b77776/32.png) [@jgroub](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jgroub)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/9 "2004-11-12T04:40:14Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Singular nouns **nearly always** form the possessive by adding “-'s” even if they end in “-s” already. Exceptions are classical names ending in S, which typically take the lone apostrophe, but which are idiomatic in their English usage, some taking “-'s” and some merely an apostrophe: _Achilles’ heel_ but _Sophocles’s tragedies._ > > One extremely useful rule in deciphering where to use “-'s” and where the naked apostrophe is whether the possessive adds an /-iz/\* sound to the word as spoken. Thus “Mr. Jones’s house” ends in a /-ziz/ sound not present in the non-possessive form, which ends in a /-onz/ sound, and therefore takes the “-'s”. However, “going over to the Joneses’ to borrow a cup of sugar” is a case where the nominative/objective and the possessive are pronounced identically, and hence takes a naked apostrophe to indicate possession (the Joneses’ _house_ being implied in the colloquial construction). When an additional /-iz/ sound is added in speech to suggest the possessive, use the “-'s” and where not, use the bare apostrophe. I don’t think this is correct AT ALL. There was a bit of an uproar when Bridget Jones’ Diary came out a few years ago. They followed this rule (add on 's to an s) and spelled it “Bridget Jones’s Diary”. This is just so wrong. I did a search at the time, and IIRC, I believe they roundly said that this was a blatant error - if it ends in s already, the rule is to just add the apostophe. That way you don’t get the awkward looking s’s situation. For example, Jesus’ prayers, Moses’ staff. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/10 "2004-11-12T06:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **jgroub** : I don’t think this is correct AT ALL. There was a bit of an uproar when Bridget Jones’ Diary came out a few years ago. They followed this rule (add on 's to an s) and spelled it “Bridget Jones’s Diary”. This is just so wrong. > > I did a search at the time, and IIRC, I believe they roundly said that this was a blatant error - if it ends in s already, the rule is to just add the apostophe. That way you don’t get the awkward looking s’s situation. For example, Jesus’ prayers, Moses’ staff. From _Harbrace_: > [@](#): > > If the singular ends in an _s_ or _z_ sound, add the apostrophe and _s_ **for words of one syllable.** Add only the apostrophe for words of more than one syllable unless you expect the pronunciation of the second _s_ or _z_ sound. > > Right: \* James’s\* book; _Moses’_ law; _Xerxes’_ army; _Hortense’s_ coat (bolding added) So what does that say about Bridget? _Jones_ is one syllable. Add _'s_. Pronounce it _Joan-zez_. Other words in the same category as _Moses_ and _Jesus_ are _Cassius_ and _Brutus_. I’m sure there are others. Those are just ones that my students spotted to show me how wrong I was. > [@](#): > > **Greg Charles** : Also the question of pluralizing years and abbreviations (e.g. 1960s vs. 1960’s, DVDs vs. DVD’s) hasn’t been fully resolved. I come down on the side of the former, but the _New York Times_ is against me. That matter of style is in transition – moving away from the use of the apostrophe. If you are a college student, check with your English professors to see which they prefer. At the moment, either is generally considered correct. Something that I’ve read of yours previous – I can’t remember exactly what – makes me think that you are not a student. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/11 "2004-11-12T07:01:30Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > And what would be a good, basic grammar book (or website) to have on hand for these types of questions? Bryan Garner, [A Dictionary of Modern American Usage](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195078535/qid=1100243364/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0503663-5080929?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) (New York: Oxford University Press, 1998). Absolutely invaluable. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apostrophes-and-the-plural-possessive/273631/12 "2004-11-12T07:06:15Z")
> [@peedin](#): > > And what would be a good, basic grammar book (or website) to have on hand for these types of questions? If you prefer to find things on the web, rather than in a book, start here: [American Heritage Book of English Usage](http://www.bartleby.com/64/) [Columbia Guide to Standard American English](http://www.bartleby.com/68/) [Strunk, Elements of Style](http://www.bartleby.com/141/)