# Apparent retaliation in statue teardowns **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 6, 2020, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472 "2020-07-06T12:20:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/22 "2020-07-07T21:11:11Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I think there is a real danger in rewriting history Can you explain how removing a statue that honors a traitor rewrites history? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/23 "2020-07-07T21:17:47Z")
That’s kind of a loaded question, isn’t it? I didn’t refer to any category of persons in my statement, which was not about any particular thing. I’m really not a big fan of any public statues, in any case, which are generally a dated gesture and less interesting than other public art. I don’t think there should be statues of pretty good people, much less “traitors”. The problem is there is not always broad agreements on labels. I can come up with a list of people I don’t think deserve honours. So can you or anyone. There should be some minimum level of dissatisfaction required before making changes. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/24 "2020-07-07T21:21:30Z")
I’d say that there has been a substantial amount of dissatisfaction shown regarding the statues honoring the racism and traitorousness of racist traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/25 "2020-07-07T21:21:34Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I didn’t refer to any category of persons in my statement, which was not about any particular thing. That’s fair. Ok, how does removing any statue anywhere rewrite history? And if you didn’t mean statues, how does removing any public display of anything rewrite history? ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/26 "2020-07-07T21:38:00Z")
History is always told with a certain bias. And people tend to judge history based on contemporary values. In Canada, the first Prime Minister skillfully united various disparate groups (with different cultures and languages) without a Civil War. He was a successful Attorney General for decades and helped build an important railway from coast to coast. He was grouchy, drank too much and had a condescending opinion of Aboriginals which had real, regrettable and far-reaching consequences. Yet he played a large role in forging a nation. There has been some call to change the names of buildings and remove statues and other public things. Doing so would not really right any wrongs (nor “rewrite history”, which I agree is a poor term). Better (in my opinion) to show a more realistic determination of the person including the accomplishments and the flaws and take more meaningful actions to reflect needed changes. I have no experience with many of the recent American examples. Obviously, if the flaws outweigh the accomplishments many people would support changes. I do support war memorials that honour a group of individuals and prefer this approach to a statue honouring one person. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/27 "2020-07-07T21:45:28Z")
How about this idea! Save all the statues instead of pulling them down. Place them instead in a lovely, gated garden. The arch over the gate could be labeled with somerhing poetic, something heartfelt, like “History’s Assholes.” ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/28 "2020-07-07T22:21:29Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > I do support war memorials that honour a group of individuals and prefer this approach to a statue honouring one person. You mean like this: > **[The superheroes of Soviet Sofia](https://voxeurop.eu/en/the-superheroes-of-soviet-sofia/)** > > In mid-June, anonymous artists repainted the Soviet soldiers on a war monument in Sofia as comic-book superheroes. Beyond merely irritating the authorities with the farce, the gesture raises the question of the relationship between power, art and... ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/29 "2020-07-07T22:48:56Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Save all the statues instead of pulling them down. Place them instead in a lovely, gated garden. I know you’re joking here, but I keep hearing people float the idea that all these statutes should be moved to one place. The idea being that they’re out of sight and out of mind, but still available for those that want to see them. Personally, I’m not a fan of that idea. Right now you have a random statue in this town, a random statue in that town, the locals see them and don’t think much of them after a while. If all those statues are in one place, I feel like it would be come a mecca. I can’t put my finger on it, but it seems like people planning their vacations around going to see all these statues wouldn’t be a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/30 "2020-07-07T22:54:49Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Group A vandalizes statues that Group A doesn’t like. > > Group B vandalizes statues that Group B doesn’t like. > > If you make excuses for one, can you oppose the other? Group A vandalizes statues because they are symbols of racism and white supremacy. Group B vandalizes statues because they are racists all in favor of white supremacy. I can think of why I might oppose one or the other… ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/31 "2020-07-07T22:55:20Z")
I don’t pretend to have the answers. Many statues were put up with public money and considerable support. I think to be taken down, a certain number of people should agree. A process whereby a very small group of people decide to take down a statue for their own vanity/ social recognition/ selfies/ publicity/etc. is not an ideal process. There is a case to be made for removing sufficiently controversial statues. Updating the plaque might be a better starting point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/32 "2020-07-07T22:58:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > > [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > > > I didn’t refer to any category of persons in my statement, which was not about any particular thing. > > That’s fair. Ok, how does removing any statue anywhere rewrite history? And if you didn’t mean statues, how does removing any public display of anything rewrite history? I don’t think **Dr\_Paprika** answered this question. In Germany there are zero statues of Hitler or any other leaders of the third reich. I still seem to recall the events that transpired. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/33 "2020-07-07T23:07:55Z")
I acknowledged “rewriting history” was a bad choice of words. Without making the usual comments on Internet analogies to despots, when I went to Berlin there were plenty of other regrettable monuments to that particular person. Plenty of art honours (for example) notable Ancient Greeks and Romans who had questionable mores but arouse less passion. This is not, personally, a topic of great importance to me. Forgive me if I decline further comment. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/34 "2020-07-07T23:42:47Z")
A Black Lives Matter mural was defaced in Martinez, California, just after it was painted. > **[Calling racism a ‘leftist lie,’ white vandals target California Black Lives...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/06/california-blm-mural-vandalized/)** > > “I thought under the cover of darkness our local racists would go out there and do whatever they wanted to do,” the mural organizer said. “But this was literally while there were people there enjoying the mural." Folks applied for a permit and were approved by the city. They painted a BLM slogan in the street. Less than an hour after they finished, some white Trump supporters were out there painting over it with black paint. That’s right, the Trump supporters were vandalizing the city approved art. So, will Trump be pushing for them to go to prison for 10 years? Will **octopus** come here and lament the lawlessness of the Trumpers? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/35 "2020-07-07T23:46:38Z")
No you can’t. That’s why explicitly condoning mob violence for personal or political gain is so problematic. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/36 "2020-07-07T23:52:14Z")
They were swiftly caught and charged with three crimes including a ridiculous charge. When Antifa, blm, and other lawless groups get arrested, charged and go to trial than I’ll worry about one couple painting over two letters. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2020, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/37 "2020-07-07T23:58:27Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > They were swiftly caught and charged with three crimes including a ridiculous charge Cite? As far as I know, the police are still looking for the suspects, 2 days later. . . ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/38 "2020-07-08T00:22:22Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Group A vandalizes statues that Group A doesn’t like. > > Group B vandalizes statues that Group B doesn’t like. > > If you make excuses for one, can you oppose the other? Group A is opposed to honoring slavery. Group B is in favor of honoring slavery. I don’t see any reason to pretend these two positions are equal. Group A is right and Group B is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/39 "2020-07-08T00:24:13Z")
Sure. > **[2 Martinez residents charged with hate crime after allegedly defacing Black...](https://abc7news.com/black-lives-matter-street-mural-martinez-ca-blm-california-mater/6305461/)** > > The Contra Costa County District Attorney's Office charged 42-year-old Nichole Anderson and 53-year-old David Nelson with three misdemeanor counts, including a hate crime. Now if only municipalities cared that much for 8 year old children, businesses and retired police. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/40 "2020-07-08T00:25:26Z")
That’s not an accurate description of group a or b. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472/41 "2020-07-08T00:28:29Z")
Put them all in one place, then publicize the names and hometowns of every single mother-fucker that goes to see them. That would take care of the worshippers real damn quick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparent-retaliation-in-statue-teardowns/914472.md?page=3)