# Apparently I have been making a huge food mistake **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 30, 2014, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098 "2014-01-30T03:11:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/41 "2014-01-30T21:25:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’ve never seen it. I don’t watch the TV version; I do get the magazine and have several of the books. They straddle the point between accessible fine cooking, perfected plain cooking and hard-headed, science-based cooking investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/42 "2014-01-31T02:08:31Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > Keep in mind that the problem is not only the critters in your food at the time you’re eating it, but also any toxins that critters made while they were in the food. Botulism, for example, is a neurotoxin that is produced by bacteria, you don’t actually have to be exposed to the bacteria itself to get it. But is the amount of Botulism toxin actually going to rise during the time the crockpot is sitting on the bench cooling down? Because it seems to me that, if the cooking process killed the bacteria, then the amount of toxin in the food will be just as high immediately after cooking as it will at the time the OP puts the food in the fridge. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong on this. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/43 "2014-01-31T02:51:07Z")
most of the bacteria is killed in proper cooking. some may survive, new ones may be introduced and these will grow during the cool down period and continue to grow slowly in the fridge. make a soup and they will come. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/44 "2014-01-31T03:58:11Z")
FWIW, standard practice in China is to bring the pot of whatever leftover from dinner to boil on the stove with the lid on. This kills off the bacteria, and as the pot cools, the lid forms a seal and keeps the food from spoiling. ---
**Author:** ![wheresmymind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@wheresmymind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wheresmymind)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/45 "2014-01-31T11:12:31Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > Keep in mind that the problem is not only the critters in your food at the time you’re eating it, but also any toxins that critters made while they were in the food. Botulism, for example, is a neurotoxin that is produced by bacteria, you don’t actually have to be exposed to the bacteria itself to get it. Unless **DummyGladHands** is cooking her food in an anaerobic chamber I doubt she has to worry about botulism. I’m with the “I do similar things all the time and don’t think twice about it” crowd. Several hours in a crock pot will kill most of the bacteria in the food, and keeping the lid on will prevent most air-born bacteria out. When boiling wort for beer I regularly just put a lid on the pot, cut the heat, and let it cool to room temperature overnight before transferring it to the fermenter and pitching the yeast the next morning. I admit that it’s terrible brewing technique for a variety of reasons, but I’ve never had a problem with contamination. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/46 "2014-01-31T11:55:22Z")
Also FWIW, the CDC says there are about 145 cases of botulism per year, about 15% (or 22) of which are foodborne, and those are primarily from home canning of low-acid foods. Salmonella bacteria are not going to survive cooking, and unlike botulism, live salmonella bacteria have to make it to your gut in order to produce the toxins that make you sick. So you’re probably not going to get salmonella from something sitting after it’s been cooked (unless you poop in it before eating – ewwww.) E. coli are primarily an issue in undercooked meat or raw foods, so you don’t have much risk there, either. I don’t think you’re going to die. Of chicken soup, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/47 "2014-01-31T15:18:29Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > Also FWIW, the CDC says there are about 145 cases of botulism per year, about 15% (or 22) of which are foodborne, and those are primarily from home canning of low-acid foods. As is typical, humans overreact to risk. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/48 "2014-01-31T16:52:31Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > As is typical, humans overreact to risk. Well, except for 145 of us. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/49 "2014-01-31T16:53:18Z")
The problem with food poisoning statistics is that they are grossly underreported, I am willing to bet that almost every poster in this thread has had a bout of it and has not reported it in. Add to this that there is a certain amount of under-diagnosis, for example, many patients in hospitals contract further illness as inpatients and the primary illness may well mask the food poisoning. As for the severity and consequences, that is also going to be under reported. When deaths occur the primary cause could be almost anything, however there may well be secondary causes such as mild food poisoning - especially with the elderly. One of the myths of food poisoning is that most of it is caused by eating out, the figures tend to show this is not necessarily the case. It is very difficult to know what the extent of home food is making people ill because of under-reporting. If you suspect you did eat contaminated food in a restaurant then it is reasonable to expect that others around you became ill, if they didn’t then it is likely the restaurant is not to blame. The lag between consumption and onset of symptoms adds to the difficulties, certain bugs can take several weeks to produce symptoms. Conversation here seems to have centred around the less common food poisoning agents, botulism is very rare - albeit extremely dangerous, listeria is not all that common, but can be very serious, Salmonella is reasonably common but the more serious variants are not so common, however no-one has mentioned Campylobactor which is the more common, and by some margin too. Additional to this is viral infection such as Norovirus - which does not reproduce on food, it merely hitches a ride, however it is extremely infectious, some agencies include this as part of foodborne illness figures, others do not - its quite difficult to define neatly into one category. Some resistance to some bacteria can be conferred by exposure to the causative agent so that poor food hygiene practices in the home may not result in illness to the residents - so people think they are 'getting away with it, when in reality it is a situation of continuous inoculation. What I am saying is that food poisoning is very much more common that you might believe, it can be so mild as to make you feel just a little bit under the weather, it is very difficult to pin down the origin, most people assume that the origin is not from the home but there is very little evidence for this, and mass food poisoning outbreaks are far more likely to be identified and controlled by public health officials, along with the much more stringent regulations that caterers and food suppliers must follow. ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/50 "2014-01-31T17:11:45Z")
Staph enterotoxin would need to be boiled for over an hour to be destroyed. Botulism toxin, 10-15 minutes. Your big risks are Bacillus cereus poisoning, not from the germs, but from the toxin. However, any B. cereus spores could germinate and flourish once the soup is exposed to air. Depending on your kitchen temperature, you might even get yourself a nice case of Clostridium perfringens food poisoning. What would you even have in the refrigerator, except raw meat, that a few minutes above 40°F is a huge issue for? A full gallon of milk won’t heat up that fast. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/51 "2014-01-31T17:33:30Z")
> [@wheresmymind](#): > > Unless **DummyGladHands** is cooking her food in an anaerobic chamber I doubt she has to worry about botulism. > > I’m with the “I do similar things all the time and don’t think twice about it” crowd. Several hours in a crock pot will kill most of the bacteria in the food, and keeping the lid on will prevent most air-born bacteria out. I used it as an easy and well-known example of an illness that can come up even when bacteria are no longer present to someone who did not recognize that heating food before consumption might not be enough, not as a specific warning against a specific food situation. For this specific situation, we do not know if she keeps the lid on the crockpot as she leaves it there. We don’t know the exact state of her house and her kitchen. We don’t know if there’s a toilet nearby with a propensity to aerosolize and a user who leaves the door open. We do know that leaving food out in the 40-140 range does increase risk. Is it going to cause certain death if you don’t immediately shove the hot soup into a blast chiller when it’s done cooking? No. But just because you’ve gotten away with it for years doesn’t mean that you’ll get away with it next time. There are dangers, and if you’re just leaving things out on the counter because you thought there weren’t, you should probably see what things could be done to drop the risks some. If you know you’re going to cook a big batch of soup, maybe freeze a couple of water bottles and toss them in when you’re done to help cool things down quicker without warming up the entire fridge or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/52 "2014-01-31T17:40:50Z")
I think I’ve shared this here before, but I’ll repeat for the sake of it: When I do a large pot of stew or soup, I always leave the green veggies out during cooking and add them in frozen when I’m putting it up. So, stack of gladware bowls goes beside the big pot, and each gets a scoop of frozen beans and a scoop of frozen peas and then filled with the hot soup or stew. This way the food cools down quickly and the green veggies don’t get overcooked. Then I put the bowls into the freezer with a butter knife between each to increase surface area (otherwise they stack closely and become one solid mass of heat.) Next day everything is frozen solid and I can re-stack more efficiently. There is nearly always one ingredient on the list that doesn’t need the heat processing (canned tomatoes are another great one) that you can freeze ahead and use as your cool-down element. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/53 "2014-01-31T20:37:11Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Well, except for 145 of us. We don’t know how they reacted. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/54 "2014-01-31T21:17:41Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > I used it as an easy and well-known example of an illness that can come up even when bacteria are no longer present to someone who did not recognize that heating food before consumption might not be enough, not as a specific warning against a specific food situation. But even that wasn’t a great example, just heating food to 185F for 5 minutes destroys the botulinum toxin. ---
**Author:** ![OpusThePenguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7bcc69/32.png) [@OpusThePenguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpusThePenguin)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/55 "2014-01-31T22:24:47Z")
Here’s an article from Harold McGee about it > **[Bending the rules on bacteria (New York Times)](https://www.curiouscook.com/site/2011/08/bending-the-rules-on-bacteria-new-york-times.html)** > > PEPPERED as we are by government warnings about the potential health hazards of eating and drinking just about everything, it was refreshing (and perplexing) to see a widely respected food writer assert recently that “people are unnecessarily afraid... He say’s it’s ok to let stew or stock cool overnight but he reheats it before cooling and putting it in the refrigerator. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_is_the_new_Analog)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/56 "2014-02-01T03:30:47Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > The problem with food poisoning statistics is that they are grossly underreported, I am willing to bet that almost every poster in this thread has had a bout of it and has not reported it in. We’re supposed to report this? How? To whom? (seriously…not being snarky here) I got food poisoning a few years ago just before flying back form China. I know it. My travelling companions know it. But it’s not in any statistics anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/57 "2014-02-01T05:43:49Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > …my personal view is food that has been left out like that I would not serve to guests, but I would eat it myself without a second thought (and do so regularly.) Between my “I’ve had food poisoning and know what I’m talking about” wife and my “I have a certificate on food safety” daughter I have to rush to eat that stuff before they throw them out. And I share it with the dogs (y’know, those creatures that regularly lick their own and each others assholes) and REALLY piss the ladies off. “You’re poisoning my dogs!!!” Of course, if I did get sick I wouldn’t give them the satisfaction by telling them. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/58 "2014-02-01T08:41:33Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > I’m confused why you cook overnight rather than what I always assumed was the standard. > > Prep in the evening… put it in the refrigerator. In the morning when you get up, get it set up to cook while you are gone. When you get home you turn it off, have a nice hot bowl of soup (or whatever), let it cool a bit then put it away either in the fridge or freezer. For me, I can work a lot of hours during the day and risk over cooking. Also, slow cooker food always tastes better the next day reheated! So, I do my slow cook at night, then put it into tupperware in the morning. I’ll take one to work for lunch and put the rest in the fridge. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/59 "2014-02-01T16:06:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > You don’t have to put the whole crock in the fridge. Decant the contents into several smaller containers and put them in the fridge. They’ll cool off pretty fast. No, decant into shallow or multiple containers so it cools reasonably quickly, and put it in the fridge when it’s no longer hot. Food safety laws have specifications about this. I don’t know the details, but I’ve seen them mentioned on TV cooking shows and my son the professional chef says that’s what he was taught in culinary school as well. You don’t want to put a lot of heat into the fridge, especially concentrated in a way that it warms up neighboring items. If you do, you can’t trust the normal rules about how long you can keep foods safe in the fridge. But you also don’t want to let it sit out all day. Admittedly, if the crockpot is closed and stays closed, the risk is significantly lowered. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098/60 "2014-02-01T16:11:09Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Wrong, it is ok to put hot foods into a refrigerator according to the [Department of Agriculture](http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/safe-food-handling/refrigeration-and-food-safety/!ut/p/a1/jVHRboIwFP2WPdA3aBFndEmzMBIz3dQYs43xshQoBYOUtUXivn4te0Gnm22a295zbm97DoxgCKOK7AtGVMErUppzNPpAazRyJwGarybuFM2Wr-vVUxCg8eZWE97_ICy9K-svDB_9Vz-_osFALIIFg1FNVG4XVcZhyKiySSVbKiQMM85TW5KMqoOdkUTZMqdUacDk7A7NSZWWRcVgKGgmCkZFp5C-I7V75fANRscPQq6es6W3GT7Olx5aDU8JZxT7IVyWRP-ZlTzu7Hn3q9gb68_pd1FBhdMInc6Vqu8sZKG2bR3GOSupk_CdhTR6LwlWQCQKb8EnBlSKBEuQiR12geSNSChuaQySFA_AnqYYBcF4Pd36D0AXY3Oz5Xq-5Q6mZpkGmSyk08iU6Fb7LllLE2ouFCnNzjBMVLwukm7X15ymTdLJaYCeM6e8njcG-u2OyZ7z55xOOZcKhsf6wHr3En49-9lmZkfxob35Bq24j20!/#5). Ah yes, the organization that gave us the “food pyramid” based on how much science? … none. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-i-have-been-making-a-huge-food-mistake/680098.md?page=4)