# Apparently I'm not a "real" man, so what?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405>\
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion\
**Created:** [April 29, 2016, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405 "2016-04-29T08:20:25Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/21 "2016-04-29T13:49:46Z")

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A real man is one who takes his coffee black.

🙂

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**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/22 "2016-04-29T13:54:42Z")

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> [@Blaster\_Master](#):
>
> I was raised with this idea, that it’s ALWAYS wrong for a man to hit a woman. Frankly, it’s bullshit. It’s wrong for ANYONE, man or woman, to use violence except in appropriate response to violence against oneself.
> 
> …
> 
> All of this “real” man stuff is one of the things about our society that REALLY angers me. As in, “real” men NEVER hit women, “real” men never cry, etc .

Yes, it has been mentioned in other threads – the notion of manliness including utter unflinching stoicism, “taking it like a man”. Blah.

One defends him/herself proportionately when justified. However as mentioned in other posts we do have to take into consideration that society’s standards of what is proportional are NOT gender-blind. But the answer is not to renounce self-defense.

And yeah, it’s not up to us to “teach there are consequences”. The consequence is we remove the offending person from our lives.

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**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/23 "2016-04-29T14:20:08Z")

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There was a series of books before most of you were born, that hashed out topics like this. The first best seller was “Real Men Don’t Eat Quiche”, followed by “Real Women Don’t Pump Gas”. (Actually, 1982, so this is far from a new idea.)

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**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/24 "2016-04-29T14:34:57Z")

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> [@glee](#):
>
> I suggest that people who tell you what a ‘real man’ is have the following in mind:
> 
> - good at fighting other men
> - straight
> - like to drink a lot
> - Christian
> - white
> - make fun of geeks and nerds
> - tall
> - ‘irresistible’ to women
> - happy to break the law (on stuff like speeding and not paying taxes)
> 
> I’m happy to not fit that stereotype.

I’ve got 7/9 so I’m like a C+ man.

That being said I’ve always live by if you hit me I’ll hit you back harder. Now that doesn’t mean I break a girls jaw for slapping me but I have punched a chick in a bar fight after she punched me for punching her boyfriend. I think you could say that beating on those weaker then you makes you “not a real man” but there is no way you a required to go through life being anyone’s punchingbag.

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**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/25 "2016-04-29T14:35:20Z")

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> [@GlowingDarkness](#):
>
> I was having a conversation with one of my female coworkers about a few things and it came to her saying that someone is not a “real” man if they hit a woman in any circumstance even in self defense.
> 
> I chuckled at this. I told her that I would defend myself if a woman constantly hit me not only to protect myself but to teach her that actions have consequences. I mean why should an adult who assaults a person be excused for their actions because they might be weaker than me?
> 
> She replied defensively saying that only “cowards” get revenge and being “the bigger man” is honorable.

I’ll counter with a quote from [this article about a man who was raped by a woman](http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1666-5-awful-realities-being-man-who-was-raped-by-woman.html):

> [@](#):
>
> “All right,” they say, “then why didn’t you just shove her off?”
> 
> First, think about how horrific that question sounds when asked of a female victim, since most people will accept that a 120 pound woman isn’t able to overpower a rampaging rape monster two and a half times her size. But even people who would never ask a female victim that assume I could easily have fought off some girl. You know, if I’d really wanted to.
> 
> There are actually several reasons why I didn’t physically defend myself. First, how about the fact that I don’t want to inflict violence on anyone, regardless of who they are or what they’re doing? You know, like most of you – all of us have been put into situations that maybe could have been solved by physical force, yet most of us haven’t been in a fistfight since grade school.
> 
> I’m a pacifist, but really so are most of us in polite society – it’s crazy to ever ask a crime victim, “But why didn’t you just overpower your attacker?” Hell, Sugar Ray Leonard was sexually assaulted as a young man, when he was already an Olympic contender on his way to becoming a prizefighter. Don’t you think he would have stopped that if he could have? It’s not the same thing as fighting off a mugger – all of your physical strength becomes useless, because your attacker makes you feel powerless. All of society’s messages about what’s happening are wrong.
> 
> And then there’s just the fact that I’m not a big guy. The average man is stronger than the average woman, but there’s definitely some overlap in those statistics. And while maybe I could have physically stopped her if I was at full strength, I was blackout drunk at the time – I couldn’t have wrestled a hamster to the ground, let alone a grown adult.
> 
> But even all of that is just avoiding the obvious: imagine I had fought back. Now imagine me trying to explain that to a courtroom after the fact: “Yes, she’s bruised, your honor, and yes, I’m the one who beat her up, and yes, I am injury-free, but I swear I thought she was going to force me to have sex with her.” That’s a surefire way to win a game of “Let’s Go to Prison” in a single move.

So, she’s a rape-enabler.

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**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/26 "2016-04-29T14:57:42Z")

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> [@Count\_Blucher](#):
>
> Someone I had a class with echoed this. He came into class with a black eye & privately he admitted his ex who is his kids mother did it to him. He said that the cops came, the cops yawned, and the cops left.
> 
> “Why didn’t you try to stop her or try to hit her back?”  
> “Because then I’d be in jail.”  
> “But she was beating you black and blue… you have a right to self defense.”  
> “No, you don’t. You really don’t. If those cops came and she had had even one red mark on her, even if I was beaten black and blue and bleeding on the floor? I’d be cuffed and taken out of therel.”  
> “Bullshit.”  
> “That’s no bullshit. That’s real. That’s how it is. I don’t know where you think you live, but its like that everywhere else around here. It happened to me once; I Know…”
> 
> Granted I wasn’t there and I only heard one side of the story, but I did see the black eye and that one side of his face was swollen. If this is the case, then i honestly don’t know what a man being hit is supposed to do.

Good Golly! What a story! I hope that this idiotic attitude changes soon. I generally don’t advocate violence against anybody, but a guy responding in kind to a woman’s physical assault should not be considered a crime. (Unless he really overdoes it with his response.)

If you’re a woman and you think that you can initiate a physical assault against a man, and then hide behind your gender in order to get off scott-free, then you belong behind bars, or at least in anger-management therapy.

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**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/27 "2016-04-29T14:59:31Z")

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> [@coffeecat](#):
>
> In my experience, you can always grab a violent woman’s wrists, like **Grrr!** did, and so defend yourself without hitting back. But what do I know? I hate sports and I cook.

But then you don’t have a free hand to prevent yourself from getting bitten or kicked.

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**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/28 "2016-04-29T15:11:41Z")

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> [@gytalf2000](#):
>
> Good Golly! What a story…
> 
> If you’re a woman and you think that you can initiate a physical assault against a man, and then hide behind your gender in order to get off scott-free, then you belong behind bars, or at least in anger-management therapy.

I, actually, have heard that story happen a couple of times over, to guys whom I knew to be good guys. They were young, got into bad relationships, a fight would start, the woman would hit, he would push her off, she’d call the cops, he’d get arrested.

I think society’s starting to get wise to the fact that men can be victims of domestic violence too, but it’s going to take longer for the some areas of society to see it - specifically, areas still heavily entrenched in a patriarchal system (law enforcement, government).

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**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/29 "2016-04-29T15:14:54Z")

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> [@gytalf2000](#):
>
> Good Golly! What a story! I hope that this idiotic attitude changes soon. I generally don’t advocate violence against anybody, but a guy responding in kind to a woman’s physical assault should not be considered a crime. (Unless he really overdoes it with his response.)
> 
> If you’re a woman and you think that you can initiate a physical assault against a man, and then hide behind your gender in order to get off scott-free, then you belong behind bars, or at least in anger-management therapy.

Yes, for the record I agree with this. I think “real adults” avoid violence when at all possible but as a woman, I cannot stand other women who think they get physical with a man and not expect to get bitch slapped.

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**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/30 "2016-04-29T15:40:27Z")

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I know some “real men”. I avoid them, and have nothing in common with them. Some of them are essentially robots, whose life consists of obeying one-word commands that leak through their cortex, like Eat, Sleep, Fuck, Fight.

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**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/31 "2016-04-29T17:02:11Z")

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I’ve always had a tit-for-tat policy: keep your hands off me, and I’ll keep mine off you. Hit me and expect to be hit back. Fair is fair, and assault is not just a male province.

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**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/32 "2016-04-29T17:27:26Z")

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> [@gytalf2000](#):
>
> Good Golly! What a story!

Thanks for making this seem like a lie. :dubious:

The black eye was real. I saw it. Sure, in week it was gone, but it was there alright. The facial swelling on the one side of his face was down by the end of the week. If I’d known it would have been called into question, if I’d known it would come up in conversation,  
if I’d known I’d be writing about it all this time later, I would have insisted on taking a picture of him, “…because, you know, they’re just not going to believe it, such a Story it is.”

In hindsight, all that would get anyone is his privacy gone… because what might people say then?  
“Maybe he fell? PROVE his wife did it.”

Because this Never [del]happened[/del] happens. :dubious:

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**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/33 "2016-04-29T17:43:44Z")

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Real women don’t want special rules just for women.

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**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/34 "2016-04-29T17:45:36Z")

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There’s a big difference between self-defense and hitting someone just because they hit you first. One is self-defense and one is assault.

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**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/35 "2016-04-29T17:49:27Z")

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> [@Flyer](#):
>
> A real man is one who takes his coffee black.
> 
> 🙂

Like his men!😃

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**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/36 "2016-04-29T18:00:37Z")

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> [@GlowingDarkness](#):
>
> I was having a conversation with one of my female coworkers about a few things and it came to her saying that someone is not a “real” man if they hit a woman in any circumstance \*\*even in self defense. \*\*

MRAs often spout a lot of ridiculous nonsense, but on this issue I think they actually raise a valid point: It is a double standard to say that a woman should be able to strike a man but that a man should be required to simply stand there and passively take a beating.  
And also to take the argument to a logical extreme, if a man has no right to use force “even in self defense”, does this mean that if a woman is trying to stab a man to death, that he should just…stand there and be stabbed to death?

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**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/37 "2016-04-29T18:10:08Z")

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Also. if the female coworker mentioned in the OP has a husband or son, I’m curious if, if that son or husband were to be assaulted by another woman, whether she would want her son or husband to simply passively not resist the violent attack.

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**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/38 "2016-04-29T18:39:41Z")

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Well, this is an oddly well-timed thread. I had a young male person come to me this morning and tell me that his girlfriend was hitting him. I told him that was unacceptable (duh) and gave him a hotline number to call. I also offered to babysit for them anytime they needed to work things out between themselves.

If he’d been female, I’d have told him to leave, but them having a baby sure complicates things.

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**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/39 "2016-04-29T19:02:36Z")

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> [@Nava](#):
>
> Oh, it certainly happens. I’ve been informed that I can’t be a woman because I’d just beat up a guy in a computer game, for example. It is also not possible for me to be an engineer or, since I am an engineer, to be a woman. Maybe if I got people holding the last two views in the same room at the same time I’d cease to exist, or perhaps I’d turn into a pink cauliflower?

A _real woman_ gets a job doing [construction work on a skyscraper](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-HMOyCWsvF9Q/Vj_0D0FmG0I/AAAAAAAAEB0/ivnJ-AMuayc/s400/CONSTRUCTIONWOMEN.jpg), and spits rivets from her teeth!

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**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\
**Post date:** [April 29, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-im-not-a-real-man-so-what/753405/40 "2016-04-29T19:31:06Z")

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> [@spamforbrains](#):
>
> There’s a big difference between self-defense and hitting someone just because they hit you first. One is self-defense and one is assault.

Seems like a fine line, to me. Striking back _is_ self defense. If you think an angry woman won’t knee you in the balls if you merely grab her, you may be in for a rude shock. I may back away if assaulted, but it really depends on circumstance.

That all said, I’ve only been assaulted by a woman once in my life. It was unprovoked and she was drinking. She’d been giving me the fat-mouth all evening (which I largely ignored) and we were all leaving for home. I happened to turn just in time to see her winging a kick in my direction and blocked it. I immediately went after her, but a couple of guys grabbed me. Probably a good thing, as I really would have flattened her ass.

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