# Apparently, "presumption of innocence" is inconvenient. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 9, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253 "2003-11-09T17:07:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/1 "2003-11-09T17:07:46Z")
Remember Maher Arar? He’s the Canadian citizen that tried to change planes in JFK and got deported to Syria for his trouble. He’s back in Canada now, but apparently spent 10 months in Syria being tortured before his release could be secured. I thought that I had gotten as angry as I could about this. [I was mistaken](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17260-2003Nov8.html). Some relevant quotes from the editorial: > [@](#): > > After reportedly concluding that they lacked evidence to charge him with a crime, they decided to deport him. And faced with a choice between democratic Canada, where he would presumably remain free, and totalitarian Syria, which could be expected to lock him up and torture him, authorities chose the latter. > […] > Sending Mr. Arar to Canada, as a practical matter, meant setting him free, since there was little prospect of bringing charges there either. Authorities faced this choice: torture in Syria or freedom on the other side of the longest undefended border in the world. _That is not a choice, you fucking morons_. There was no sufficient evidence to charge him with a crime. Let me repeat that. _There was no sufficient evidence to charge him with a crime._. When that happens, you don’t “choose” between letting him go and shipping him off to Syria to be tortured. Not in a civilized country, you don’t. Hundreds of American servicemen have died while toppling a regime where people were “disappeared” off the streets and tortured without due process, and now the Washington Post is debating how best to erode due process in the United States. What is wrong with these people? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/2 "2003-11-09T18:26:37Z")
Say it with me: _Extraordinary Rendition_. To Canadians, it’s a term usually reserved for the sort of thing that Holly Cole does to Tom Waits songs. This [new usage](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A522-2003Nov4.html) is a bit of a bring-down: > [@](#): > > Officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that the Arar case fits the profile of a covert CIA “extraordinary rendition” – the practice of turning over low-level, suspected terrorists to foreign intelligence services, some of which are known to torture prisoners. “Damn, these irritating human-rights laws say that we can’t torture people that we are suspicious of in the course of an investigation. Unless…” Oh well, maybe civilization was a bad idea anyway. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/3 "2003-11-09T18:50:23Z")
If he was innocent, he wouldn’t have been caught. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/4 "2003-11-09T19:15:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*If he was innocent, he wouldn’t have been caught. \*\* Dex, it’s not that simple. Some yokel TSA or immigration agent gets it into his little peabrain that All Arabs are Terrorists, checks the guy’s name against a list that is known to be inaccurate, and the next thing the poor guy knows, he’s locked up in some third-world country that never even heard of human rights. Tell you what. We’ll arrange to have you arrested, charged, and tried for a crime you didn’t commit. Then, when your ass is rotting in jail, you can lament your guilt. Until then, recognize that the system isn’t anywhere near airtight. Okay? Robin ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/5 "2003-11-09T19:27:55Z")
I suspect that **Dex** ’s post is just sarcasm. At least, I hope so. Of course, even then there’s the possibility that _someone_ out there believes that tripe, and those same people think everything is hunky-dunky with the story **Larry** linked to. That’s frightening enough. (Hallowe’en is over, **Dex** , you don’t have to keep scaring me. Really. Please?) ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/6 "2003-11-09T19:40:36Z")
_Please_ tell you’re kidding with your post **Dex**. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/7 "2003-11-09T19:47:27Z")
Hell, Ed Meese said more or less the same thing. And he _wasn’t_ kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/8 "2003-11-09T19:51:29Z")
Luckily, Ed Meese isn’t an administrator here. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/9 "2003-11-09T19:55:20Z")
If it’s sarcasm or a joke, it wasn’t very funny. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/10 "2003-11-09T20:00:00Z")
I’ve been following the Maher Arar story from the beginning. He was apparently on a list of people who knew a guy who was suspected of being a terrorist but was never charged and was happily living on in Ottawa. Oh yeah - that’s guilt right there. And the best part is that, supposedly, the Canadian government knew what was going on, too. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/11 "2003-11-09T20:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tapioca Dextrin \* > \*\*Luckily, Ed Meese isn’t an administrator here. \*\* Luckily? I dunno. I would rather a viewpoint like that be held by an administrator here than by a U.S. Attorney General! However FTR I did think Dex was being sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/12 "2003-11-09T21:28:59Z")
Christ, _learn to spot a joke_. Not directed at anyone in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/13 "2003-11-10T03:40:52Z")
“The thing is, you donft have suspects who are innocent of a crime. Thatfs contradictory. If a person is innocent of crime, then he is not a suspect.” - Ed Meese So… I don’t see what the big problem here is. The government said it’s ok, and the government is our friend. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/14 "2003-11-10T11:09:02Z")
I suspect Ed Meese of being a criminal… Hey! It works! ---
**Author:** ![Nanoda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nanoda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanoda)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/15 "2003-11-10T11:13:09Z")
Man, I wish our government would grow a pair - we aren’t even pushing for an inquiry on this or even the [William Sampson](http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=F9AE80B1-22CF-4232-97E0-D479EAD56D5D) thing. FWIW, I think the OP is right in the belief that due process and related rights are getting the shaft in the U.S… This one incident sadly fails to shock me - there’s a pit thread on a [police raid](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222083) on a school still open now… librarians are organizing against a giant cudgel of a Gov’t act advertised to protect freedoms, but so far has been used only against smalltime drug dealers and [strip clubs](http://www.alternet.org/rights/2003/11/001370.html)… Darn. This post is making me depressed. Where’re the long-haired hippies when you really need them? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/16 "2003-11-10T13:46:10Z")
Y’know, these are the times when I wish H.L. Mencken were still alive and working. I’d love to hear his take on Bush _fils_ and the civil liberties mess he’s made since 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/17 "2003-11-10T16:04:09Z")
There are a whole bunch of things like this where one could condone action X in situation Y. But if the power is given to public officials to do X in situation Y, they’ll inevitably try to use it in situations A through Q as well. This is one example. I can see the logic of being able to threaten one of Saddam’s bodyguards with being handed over to the Syrians if he doesn’t spill what he knows. But they don’t know where to stop, and so Maher Arar gets tortured in Syria for 10 months. It’s the same on the mass detentions after 9/11. The Justice Department said many of these people were being held not because they were suspects in any way, but because they might know one piece in the ‘mosaic’ of information they needed to gather. But the ‘mosaic’ detainees were treated like hardened criminals, keeping them in their cells 23 hours a day, depriving them of sleep by keeping the lights on 24/7, and so forth. I can see the point in treating a terrorist or mobster harshly to make sure he breaks, but many of these were just ordinary Joes, or Ahmeds, who might know something that would help the DoJ piece together an investigation. Or so we were told; I’m not believing much they say, these days. The Patriot Act, per **Nanoda** ’s link, is another for-instance. Some of its provisions make sense in certain facets of the War on Terrorism. But they’re getting used instead to investigate Nevada’s strip joints, fercryinoutloud. > [@](#): > > [DoJ spokesperson Mark] Corallo said federal law enforcement officials have no qualms about using the {Patriot] act to pursue an array of criminal investigations that have nothing to do with terrorism…“I think most of the American people think the Patriot Act is a good thing and it’s not affecting their civil liberties at all, and that the government should use any constitutional and legal tools it can, whether it’s going after garden-variety criminals or terrorists.” [Charming.](http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Nov-05-Wed-2003/news/22521283.html) ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/18 "2003-11-10T16:08:40Z")
This weekend we were at a friends’ home–they get BBC America (which we don’t) so the shows were all new to us. We watched a Tivo’ed episode of “Airport.” In this episode, authorities at Heathrow were advised that a British Airways flight attendant was using a false name and identity. They went on the plane, nabbed the guy, detained him, questioned him, and confronted him with evidence. The thing that struck me nearly dumb with awe and surprise was the professionalism of the British Authorities. They were exceedingly polite and considerate to the man (who turned out to be a Lebanese national on the run from his family) even though details were adding up that might raise alarm (he’d gained airport access via employment, he spoke Arabic, applied to pilot’s program, was concealing his identity, etc.) The sad thing was, I simply could not imagine a suspect being treated that way in the U.S. At least not now. They didn’t tell us the full story, but it looked like the guy had a legitimate personal reason for his actions, completely unassociated with terrorism. And the British police assumed that was true until they had reason to believe otherwise. What a concept! Presumed Innocent! ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/19 "2003-11-10T16:27:24Z")
Could we put a _tiny_ bit of blame on the Syrians? I don’t think you will find “much love” between Assad and Bush at any level. Syria is another Baathist nation. If the guy is al Qaeda, as the editorial notes, it’s tough to decide what to do. If Canada really wants him, send him there with a subcutaneous chip. You know, like “Snake Pliskin” or something. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253/20 "2003-11-10T16:49:40Z")
The Syrians are like a mad dog. You put a man in a cage with a mad dog, you can’t really blame the dog when it bites him. We knew what would happen to a Canadian citizen who could not eb charged with anything on either side of the corder. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised (and disappointed) Canada hasn’t raised much more of a stink. This was practically an act of war. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-presumption-of-innocence-is-inconvenient/212253.md?page=2)