# Apparently saying "all lives matter" is racist according to a BLM's co-founder. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 16, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083 "2016-07-16T23:16:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/221 "2016-07-22T17:12:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (Underline added) > > Hahahaha. I must have missed your election to free speech czar of the internet. Congratulations. > > It’s now obvious that the only possible response to “Black Lives Matter” must be “Yes, they do” because someone on the internet calling themselves **bobot** has decreed it. Thank you. This is settled, then? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/222 "2016-07-22T17:25:00Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > If someone says: “Black lives matter”, and one’s response is anything other than: “Yes, they do”, then one is at best misguided, and at worst, well, you know. What responses are acceptable if someone tells me that all lives matter? ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/223 "2016-07-22T17:34:07Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What responses are acceptable if someone tells me that all lives matter? “Evidence indicates to the contrary.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/224 "2016-07-22T17:40:28Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > “Evidence indicates to the contrary.” Is that an equally accurate response to someone saying that black lives matter? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/225 "2016-07-22T17:46:34Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Thank you. This is settled, then? Obviously. Long live the **bobot**! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/226 "2016-07-22T17:54:56Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > It’s apparent, because you haven’t done a thing about it. And, when presented with an organization (affiliation under a slogan, or whatever it is that BLM is) that’s purpose is to draw attention to the fact, your response is to quibble about how they’re not nice people, or hypocrites for dying at the hands of white people without using proper inclusive language, or whatever. > > Who gives a shit if ‘Black Lives Matter’ is nothing but a bunch of whiny assholes. Being a whiny asshole is an understandable (if not the only) response to numerous real and imminent injustices that lead directly to loss of life and liberty that you and I don’t have to worry about. So if BLM pisses you off, I suggest working double-hard on addressing those injustices, so that they won’t have a reason to get angry in a way you disapprove of. It’s win/win; everybody gets what they want! “Eye” haven’t done anything about it? What are you, a Democrat? Now you expect someone else to fix your problem? And then, I suppose, the government must provide you with a free cheese. I reject the claim that saying All Lives Matter is racist. The only Black Lives Matter mob can’t say All Lives Matter because they have proven themselves to be racist. Blue lives do not matter. Gay lives do not matter. FYI, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) doesn’t piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/227 "2016-07-22T17:56:56Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I reject the claim that saying All Lives Matter is racist. The only Black Lives Matter mob can’t say All Lives Matter because they have proven themselves to be racist. Blue lives do not matter. Gay lives do not matter. Again with these fictional people. I get it, the fictional only Black Lives Matter mob are a bunch of jerks. But your obsession with a group of imaginary people is becoming a bit disconcerting… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/228 "2016-07-22T18:16:31Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Again with these fictional people. I get it, the fictional only Black Lives Matter mob are a bunch of jerks. But your obsession with a group of imaginary people is becoming a bit disconcerting… He has something of a point, though. Imagine I see someone declaring that black lives matter; it maybe doesn’t even occur to me to wonder if he means that _only_ black lives matter; I’m a darned nice guy and so can assume he means that all lives – including black lives – matter. Now imagine I see **doorhinge** approach that guy while expressing the sentiment that all lives matter – and I figure he means that all lives, including black lives, matter. _Aha,_ I think to myself, _if I’m right, then I’m about to see them agree!_ Does the first guy prove me right by agreeing that all lives, including black ones, matter? Or does he surprise me with a reply that’s (a) inconsistent with that, but (b) consistent with believing that only black lives matter? ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/229 "2016-07-22T18:28:39Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Is that an equally accurate response to someone saying that black lives matter? That’s kinda the point, innit? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/230 "2016-07-22T18:33:50Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > That’s kinda the point, innit? Well, yeah; that’s why I figured saying that all lives matter is no more objectionable than saying that black lives matter. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/231 "2016-07-22T18:34:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > “Eye” haven’t done anything about it? What are you, a Democrat? Now you expect someone else to fix your problem? And then, I suppose, the government must provide you with a free cheese. Ah yes, black people bleeding out in the street after being shot by police ought to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps . . . don’t mind the bodily fluids sloshing around in the bottom of their shoes. Those idiot black people expecting the government to solve their problem for them! > [@](#): > > I reject the claim that saying All Lives Matter is racist. The only Black Lives Matter mob can’t say All Lives Matter because they have proven themselves to be racist. Blue lives do not matter. Gay lives do not matter. It’s obvious that you are not responding to anything that I said, but I’ll repeat just in case you accidentally missed it the first time: Who gives a shit if ‘Black Lives Matter’ is nothing but a bunch of whiny assholes. Being a whiny asshole is an understandable (if not the only) response to numerous real and imminent injustices that lead directly to loss of life and liberty that you and I don’t have to worry about. So if BLM pisses you off, I suggest working double-hard on addressing those injustices, so that they won’t have a reason to get angry in a way you disapprove of. It’s win/win; everybody gets what they want! > [@](#): > > FYI, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) doesn’t piss me off. Ok then. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/232 "2016-07-22T19:02:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, yeah; that’s why I figured saying that all lives matter is no more objectionable than saying that black lives matter. Well, no, not really, because Black Lives Matter is as much a reminder as a slogan. The Black Lives Matter movement was created pretty much because police in this country have consistently proven that All Lives _ **don’t** _ Matter to them, at least, not equally. If all lives _actually_ mattered, we wouldn’t have to remind people that black lives matter. Plus, you’ve also got people like @ **doorhinge** who look at Black Lives Matter and incorrectly infer an unspoken “Only”, when they should be inferring “Also.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/233 "2016-07-22T19:14:06Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Well, no, not really, because Black Lives Matter is as much a reminder as a slogan. The Black Lives Matter movement was created pretty much because police in this country have consistently proven that All Lives _ **don’t** _ Matter to them, at least, not equally. If all lives _actually_ mattered, we wouldn’t have to remind people that black lives matter. But that’s my point: if someone tells me the police aren’t acting like all lives matter, because they aren’t acting like black lives matter; and then adds that the police should act like all lives, including black lives, matter – explaining that all lives, including black lives, matter – then I’m going to nod just as much if he says that along with “all lives matter” or “black lives matter”, and I won’t call him a racist in either case In both cases I could do the are-you-describing-cops-today-or-talking-aspirationally bit; but in both cases I can simply take each side to mean that _all lives, including black lives, should be treated as if they mattered, because they do to me, and we as a society should act that way and demand liberty and justice for all._ > [@](#): > > Plus, you’ve also got people like @ **doorhinge** who look at Black Lives Matter and incorrectly infer an unspoken “Only”, when they should be inferring “Also.” But, as far as I can tell, people are looking at the All Lives Matter types and inferring an unspoken “uh, not including black lives.” Even when they explicitly say, if asked, that folks should of course infer “including black lives.” If we infer the “also”, I figure we can likewise infer the “including black lives.” ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/234 "2016-07-22T19:25:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But, as far as I can tell, people are looking at the All Lives Matter types and inferring an unspoken “uh, not including black lives.” Even when they explicitly say, if asked, that folks should of course infer “including black lives.” > > If we infer the “also”, I figure we can likewise infer the “including black lives.” But All Lives Matter is a response to Black Lives Matter, and as such carries an implicit accusation that there is something wrong with saying Black Lives Matter. At the top of your post you say that, basically “either is fine” (correct me if I’m reading something other than what you meant). But these, er, movements/concepts/loose organizations didn’t both just spring up organically. All Lives Matter says, fairly explicitly, that Black Lives Matter is flawed. I don’t think its reasonable to pull these phrases out of real-world context and say, “well, they both mean kind of the same thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/235 "2016-07-22T19:36:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But that’s my point: if someone tells me the police aren’t acting like all lives matter, because they aren’t acting like black lives matter; and then adds that the police should act like all lives, including black lives, matter – explaining that all lives, including black lives, matter – then I’m going to nod just as much if he says that along with “all lives matter” or “black lives matter”, and I won’t call him a racist in either case > > In both cases I could do the are-you-describing-cops-today-or-talking-aspirationally bit; but in both cases I can simply take each side to mean that _all lives, including black lives, should be treated as if they mattered, because they do to me, and we as a society should act that way and demand liberty and justice for all._ You know what would be awesome? If I were capable of believing that that was the actual sentiment of most people who say All Lives Matter. Unfortunately for me, my experience has taught me otherwise. > [@](#): > > But, as far as I can tell, people are looking at the All Lives Matter types and inferring an unspoken “uh, not including black lives.” That’s because, in my experience, that’s exactly what they mean. IME, for every one person who says “All Lives Matter” and really means “All Lives Matter, including Black Lives,” there are at least ninety-nine people who say “All Lives Matter” but really mean “Shut up, darkie!” On preview, also, what @ **Eonwe** said. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/236 "2016-07-22T19:38:01Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > But All Lives Matter is a response to Black Lives Matter, and as such carries an implicit accusation that there is something wrong with saying Black Lives Matter. At the top of your post you say that, basically “either is fine” (correct me if I’m reading something other than what you meant). But these, er, movements/concepts/loose organizations didn’t both just spring up organically. All Lives Matter says, fairly explicitly, that Black Lives Matter is flawed. > > I don’t think its reasonable to pull these phrases out of real-world context and say, “well, they both mean kind of the same thing.” Well, leaving aside that seemingly left-leaning cite I came across – the one where the guy mentions that the first time he saw All Lives Matter, it was being done in mere solidarity with Black Lives Matter, possibly as a quibble over tactics – I guess I’m taking **doorhinge** and the like seriously: they hear the phrase Black Lives Matter; and they realize it’s possible to infer an “only”; and, eschewing obfuscation, they’d personally rather express the sentiment by literally saying that all lives matter. I find neither phrase objectionable, because I infer that the folks who say either are trying to convey that all lives – including black lives – matter. I mean, sure, it’s a _rebuttable_ presumption, but when pressed for details **doorhinge** has specified that, yes, he in fact means that all lives – including black lives – matter. And I’m not aware of anyone who fails to so specify when asked, so I infer it. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/237 "2016-07-22T19:44:18Z")
(emphasis added) > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, leaving aside that seemingly left-leaning cite I came across – the one where the guy mentions that the first time he saw All Lives Matter, it was being done in mere solidarity with Black Lives Matter, possibly as a quibble over tactics – I guess I’m taking **doorhinge** and the like seriously: they hear the phrase Black Lives Matter; and they realize it’s possible to infer an “only”; and, eschewing obfuscation, they’d personally rather express the sentiment by literally saying that all lives matter. Oookay… So, I stipulate that I haven’t been around here very long, relatively speaking, but I feel like I’ve been around long enough to have made the observation that this course of action is not a particularly fruitful one. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an intelligent, well-articulated, reasonable argument that involved any tenets that resembled, “I believe **doorhinge**.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/238 "2016-07-22T19:47:19Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > You know what would be awesome? If I were capable of believing that that was the actual sentiment of most people who say All Lives Matter. Unfortunately for me, my experience has taught me otherwise. I could be persuaded otherwise, I guess – but anyone I’ve seen saying it here seems willing to specify that, yeah, they mean “including black people.” If you’ve got a cite or something, I’m obviously all ears. > [@](#): > > That’s because, in my experience, that’s exactly what they mean. IME, for every one person who says “All Lives Matter” and really means “All Lives Matter, including Black Lives,” there are at least ninety-nine people who say “All Lives Matter” but really mean “Shut up, darkie!” Well, hat certainly would put a sinister spin on those poll results I’ve seen, where most folks surveyed say it’s closer to their own views to say that all lives matter. 😉 Again, though, while I can supply you with folks who say all lives matter and mean “including black lives,” I’m awfully low on examples of the opposite. Can you point me to any? ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/239 "2016-07-22T19:49:27Z")
Also, with respect to the other claim in your post, they might say that they mean, “Oh yeah, black people, too”, but it doesn’t seem as though their actions are consistent with that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083/240 "2016-07-22T19:55:37Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, hat certainly would put a sinister spin on those poll results I’ve seen, where most folks surveyed say it’s closer to their own views to say that all lives matter. 😉 Surprisingly, people aren’t willing to publicly go on the record and self-identify as racist. > [@](#): > > Can you point me to any? Point you to whom, the people who come into my store on a daily basis? Shall I ask them to register on the Dope, so you can hear it straight from them, or would you prefer their telephone numbers? I’m not on social media, man: I’m not talking about eggs on Twitter, I’m talking about people that get in my actual face. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-saying-all-lives-matter-is-racist-according-to-a-blms-co-founder/760083.md?page=13)