# Apparently we can't even die satisfactorily **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162 "2005-03-18T17:47:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/1 "2005-03-18T17:47:41Z")
Every time I think I can’t be any more disgusted by the Catholic Church, something like [this](http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031805funeral.htm) happens. > [@](#): > > The Roman Catholic bishop of San Diego has decreed that a prominent gay businessman cannot receive a Catholic funeral in any parish in the diocese. > > \ > > In a statement released Thursday, Rodrigo Valdivia, chancellor for the Diocese of San Diego, said that no parish in the diocese would hold the funeral because McCusker had owned two gay nightclubs. > > “The facts regarding the business activity of John McCusker were not known by church officials when arrangements were requested for his funeral,” the statement said. “When these facts became known the bishop of San Diego concluded that to avoid public scandal Mr. McCusker can’t be granted a funeral in a Catholic church or chapel in the Diocese of San Diego.” Outrage fatigue has set in. Please supply your own "fuck"s and "bastard"s as you see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/2 "2005-03-18T18:05:15Z")
ummm what exactly is the problem here? I mean it sucks and all but it’s not like the Catholic Church has been gay friendly up to this point. Their church their rules. Going to be upset the next time Jewish clergy refuse to bury a man with tattoos? ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/3 "2005-03-18T18:17:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Rodrigo Valdivia, chancellor for the Diocese of San Diego, said that no parish in the diocese would hold the funeral because McCusker had owned two gay nightclubs. Rodrigo must be feeling bitchy after she was snubbed by the door staff. Regardless, put me in the ‘meh’ column. The RCC is free to set its own rules, as stupid as they may be. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/4 "2005-03-18T18:19:35Z")
My impression was that the Pope had at one point promoted the message “love the Sinner, hate the Sin”. Maybe that is part of the OP’s outrage? I think it’s pretty shitty myself, and downright hypocritical. That’s just my opinion of that particular “edict” and the people who issued it though. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/5 "2005-03-18T18:32:29Z")
People who have had Catholic funerals: Al Capone Charles “Lucky” Luciano John Gotti Who else? C’mon, help me fill out this list of people who aren’t as bad as gays. ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/6 "2005-03-18T18:35:40Z")
Also, let me add FTR, I don’t think a person’s sexual preferances are any of my damned business, and that if I can get married to the one I love, so can a person who loves someone of the same gender as much as I love my husband. I realize not everyone thinks this way, and that some do indeed consider gays to be sinners and threats. I think they are full of shit though. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/7 "2005-03-18T18:44:35Z")
Why on Earth would a gay person want a Catholic funeral? Isn’t that a bit like a black person wanting a KKK-themed funeral? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/8 "2005-03-18T18:51:42Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > People who have had Catholic funerals: > > Al Capone > Charles “Lucky” Luciano > John Gotti > > Who else? C’mon, help me fill out this list of people who aren’t as bad as gays. The Borgias? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/9 "2005-03-18T18:52:21Z")
I strongly suspect that Mr. Valdivia is no longer a practicing sodomist, and gave up ownership of his clubs when he joined the exclusive “Dead Guy” club. I suppose he could be a practicing necropheliac, but that’s between only him and his mortician. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/10 "2005-03-18T18:52:38Z")
One - this is a specific diocese. Not the church as a whole. Certainly my diocese has had many a funeral for homosexuals. I think it’s pretty shitty. OTOH, I don’t see anything about this man having been a regular attendee of the church, either. I don’t really understand why there’s a sense that any church should be glad to jump through hoops to satisfy someone who hadn’t been a member of their congregation. This is not an excuse for the behavior of this diocese, just a comment in general. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/11 "2005-03-18T19:20:22Z")
See, now I’m confused. I’ve been paying attention all this time, and gay activists have been telling me they’re not after any approval of their lifestyle, just equal rights. **Otto** himself said so, a year ago: > [@Otto](#): > > Your approval? Not the slightest bit important. Your (and your society’s) not opposing it absent concrete verifiable harm is what’s important. Now **Otto** is all pissed off because someone showed disapproval that he claimed wasn’t important to him in the first place. Why are you so outraged, **Otto**? John McCusker is going to have an appropriate funeral, and will then be buried. None of his rights are being violated in the process. Therefore, by your previously stated priorities, everything’s hunky dory, right? Or has the mask fallen? I think you deeply care about personal and societal approval, **Otto**. This thread shows it. Why don’t you just admit it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/12 "2005-03-18T19:49:53Z")
Yeah, I loathe the Catholic Church, but they have the right to run their organization the what they wish. Besides, I’d think that instead of the Catholic Church thinking that burying a gay businessman would besmirch its reputation, the reverse would actually be true. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/13 "2005-03-18T19:55:28Z")
I don’t know if I’d say he received an appropriate funeral. Many Catholics would have a strong preference for a Catholic funeral, not the Episcopal one that he wound up with. What strikes me as so hypocritical about the Church’s position is that the policy of not burying gays would result in a good number of priests being denied Catholic funerals. Most priests that I have heard on the subject say they’ll bury anybody- believer, atheist, what have you. I hope this discrimination is limited to one diocese. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/14 "2005-03-18T19:55:34Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > Going to be upset the next time Jewish clergy refuse to bury a man with tattoos? That’s a myth. Getting a tattoo isn’t considered more dreadful than, say, eating a ham sandwich. Doesn’t change your overall point. Just fighting a little ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/15 "2005-03-18T19:58:20Z")
**Revtim** , one can both be Catholic and gay. Or gay and black. Or gay and a bad dresser. One doesn’t exclude the other, no matter how much the RCC tries to make it so. **Otto** , you cut out the part that would have bolstered your case: > [@article](#): > > McCusker’s family sought to have his funeral at his alma mater, the University of San Diego, which is associated with the diocese. That’s pretty fucking distressing. If he loved his school that much and they’re rejecting him, I hope they give back all the diseased gay money they took from him, too. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/16 "2005-03-18T20:16:48Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > See, now I’m confused. And stupid. Don’t forget stupid. How exactly is “shitty thing to do to a person” synonymous with “Otto craves societal approval”? And how long exactly have you been hoarding that quote, looking for the opportunity to lob it back at me? What thread is it even from? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/17 "2005-03-18T21:28:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What strikes me as so hypocritical about the Church’s position is that the policy of not burying gays would result in a good number of priests being denied Catholic funerals. 😕 Being gay is not sinful in the Church’s eyes, and assuming gay priests are celibate and faithful to their vocation, there wouldn’t be an issue. Same thing with celibate gay laity. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/18 "2005-03-18T21:33:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > See, now I’m confused. I’ve been paying attention all this time, and gay activists have been telling me they’re not after any approval of their lifestyle, just equal rights. **Otto** himself said so, a year ago: > > Now **Otto** is all pissed off because someone showed disapproval that he claimed wasn’t important to him in the first place. > > Why are you so outraged, **Otto**? John McCusker is going to have an appropriate funeral, and will then be buried. None of his rights are being violated in the process. Therefore, by your previously stated priorities, everything’s hunky dory, right? > > Or has the mask fallen? > > I think you deeply care about personal and societal approval, **Otto**. This thread shows it. Why don’t you just admit it. This is the Pit, right? **Mr. Moto** , the reason **gobear** is upset about this is that \*\*gobear \*\*possesses a trait called empathy. Empathy is the ability to be aware of the thoughts and feelings of someone else. (I realize that this is a difficult concept for you. I can give you a few citations if necessary). While I imagine that **gobear** would not care at all whether or not the RCC would bury him after he’s dead, **gobear** also recognises that a formal Roman Catholic funeral is very important to many people. Those of us who are capable of empathy realize that even though both we and John McCusker are not actually affected by this decision in any meaningful way, denying someone their preferred form of last rites to “avoid public scandal” is a shitty thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/19 "2005-03-18T22:00:10Z")
Just a minor hijack: I did a search for additional stories on this, and found that a different John McCusker and Raphael Valdivia are colleagues and collaborators on research papers in the Duke University Department of Microbiology. May we note that Mr. McCusker no doubt considered himself a Catholic, expected to be buried from the church to which he had professed belief, and that Chancellor Valdivia is going against the spirit, if not the letter, of the Catholic teachings on homosexuality in refusing him burial? And while I’m quite certain I speak for every Episcopalian Doper in saying that we will always welcome those whom other churches consider not good enough to enter their doors, it seems to me a crying shame that the Catholics would excommunicate a dead man and refuse him Christian burial. The Catholic Church has every right to make its own rules and deal with its adherents how it lists. But is it too much to ask that it abide by its own rules? And thank you, **RobertLiguori** , for explaining to **Mr Moto** what the problem is. Very well spoken, and I hope he feels sufficiently chagrined at his position; I know he can be a man of empathy himself, when he bothers to try. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/20 "2005-03-18T22:05:10Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > This is the Pit, right? > > **Mr. Moto** , the reason **gobear** is upset about this is that \*\*gobear \*\*possesses a trait called empathy. Empathy is the ability to be aware of the thoughts and feelings of someone else. (I realize that this is a difficult concept for you. I can give you a few citations if necessary). While I imagine that **gobear** would not care at all whether or not the RCC would bury him after he’s dead, **gobear** also recognises that a formal Roman Catholic funeral is very important to many people. Those of us who are capable of empathy realize that even though both we and John McCusker are not actually affected by this decision in any meaningful way, denying someone their preferred form of last rites to “avoid public scandal” is a shitty thing to do. I think you meant to insert **Otto** ’s name in there; I don’t think “empathetic” is one of my strong qualities. I do agree that denying a Catholic funeral is a shitty thing to do, but it’s their church and their rules. I’m sorry John’s family are wounded by this. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162.md?page=2)