# Apparently we can't even die satisfactorily **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162 "2005-03-18T17:47:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/21 "2005-03-18T22:24:00Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I think you meant to insert **Otto** ’s name in there; I don’t think “empathetic” is one of my strong qualities. I do agree that denying a Catholic funeral is a shitty thing to do, but it’s their church and their rules. I’m sorry John’s family are wounded by this. Oops. Apologies. Yes, I meant Otto. (Yay! Polycarp thanked me!) ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/22 "2005-03-19T02:33:31Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > See, now I’m confused. I’ve been paying attention all this time, and gay activists have been telling me they’re not after any approval of their lifestyle, just equal rights. **Otto** himself said so, a year ago: > > Now **Otto** is all pissed off because someone showed disapproval that he claimed wasn’t important to him in the first place. > > Why are you so outraged, **Otto**? John McCusker is going to have an appropriate funeral, and will then be buried. None of his rights are being violated in the process. Therefore, by your previously stated priorities, everything’s hunky dory, right? > > Or has the mask fallen? > > I think you deeply care about personal and societal approval, **Otto**. This thread shows it. Why don’t you just admit it. Otto, he’s hanging on your every word and he seems worried about your feelings. :: sing-song voice :: I think someone has a crush! ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/23 "2005-03-19T05:29:28Z")
> [@Johnny Bravo](#): > > That’s a myth. Getting a tattoo isn’t considered more dreadful than, say, eating a ham sandwich. > > Doesn’t change your overall point. Just fighting a little ignorance. A little late (I went to bed after I posted) but thank you for the info. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/24 "2005-03-19T05:30:38Z")
er I meant my thanks was a little late. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/25 "2005-03-19T06:26:56Z")
According to the article they refused him because he was the owner of two gay night clubs. Which of course makes perfect sense…after all he was profiting from a business that encorages drinking, dancing, lewd behavior and quite possibly drug use and promiscuous sex. This of course being markedly different from straight night clubs which are noted for their community sings and quiting bees. I just don’t think the diocese would have had any problem burying the owner of a non-gay nightclub. Which is why, though of course they can run things any way they want, I don’t think its unreasonable to call them on hypocracy. I seem to recall something in the Bible about that… ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/26 "2005-03-19T06:28:51Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > People who have had Catholic funerals: > > Al Capone > Charles “Lucky” Luciano > John Gotti > > Who else? C’mon, help me fill out this list of people who aren’t as bad as gays. How about Franco? Or any of the scummier Popes, Borgia and non-Borgia. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/27 "2005-03-19T10:32:35Z")
Did Mr McCusker have any kind of last rites? You know, the bit before you die where all your sins are supposed to be forgiven? because if he did, the RCC is full of shit. Or is this that while not Catholic himself, he wanted to have his funeral at his Alma Mater? In which case, unfortunately it’s their building, so they can make the rules. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/28 "2005-03-19T10:58:24Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Every time I think I can’t be any more disgusted by the Catholic Church, something like [this](http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/031805funeral.htm) happens. > > Outrage fatigue has set in. Please supply your own "fuck"s and "bastard"s as you see fit. Sorry, but I’m not outraged the slightest bit. It’s not like it’s mandatory to belong to the catholic church, or a big secret that said church has an issue with homosexuality, or a fundamental human right to get a catholic burial. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/29 "2005-03-19T12:11:46Z")
**cuata-I-can-never-remember-how-to-spell-it-and-I’m-too-lazy-to-cut-and-paste-twice** : _Who else? C’mon, help me fill out this list of people who aren’t as bad as gays._ Jeepers, you can find anything on the internet these days! [Funerals of the Infamous](http://www.funeralplan.com/funeralplan/idea/infamous.html): > [@](#): > > First and foremost on that list, in the New York area, is St. John’s Cemetery in Middle Village, Queens. Run by the Brooklyn Catholic Archdiocese, it has been referred to in literature as the “Boot Hill” of the Mob. St. John’s 169 immaculately landscaped acres hold a whole host of ignominious characters that enable the cemetery to boast being a veritable who’s who of gangland. > > Among the notorious who call St. John’s Cemetery their final resting place, Carlo Gambino, Joseph Profaci, Joe Colombo, Vito Genovese, Carmine Galante, Salvatore Maranzano, Aniello Dellacroce and Salvatore (Charlie) “Lucky” Luciano. […] > > Although St. John’s Cemetery may hold the largest concentration of mobsters of any burial ground, it is not the only Catholic cemetery to knowingly or unknowingly inter the reputed mob figures. Calvary cemetery in Woodside, Queens, as well as Holy Cross cemetery in Brooklyn, St. Raymond’s Cemetery in the Bronx and Madonna Cemetery in New Jersey, have also accepted these controversial men for burial. In Chicago, Mt. Carmel Cemetery has the remains of both Sam Giancana and Alphonse Capone. […] > > But whether meeting death by violent means or as a natural consequence of old age, the ensuing funeral plans of mob members are often met by controversy and public outrage has erupted, as readily reported in the media. Some say they ought to be denied a Mass of Christian Burial and the accompanying interment in a Catholic Cemetery - that for their burials on consecrated grounds to be permitted by the church is the very height of hypocrisy. > > For others, it appears that the church may be turning a blind eye to their former business practices, hence the criticism. Yet, the concept of forgiveness is central to Catholicism and Christianity in general. So the majority end up quietly and some not so quietly, buried in consecrated ground amid cries of hypocrisy concerning the Roman Catholic Church. > > Arguably few have been denied, but it has happened, as in the case of the aforementioned Carmine Galante, likewise Big Paul Castellano, who was, upon his death in 1985, denied a Mass of Christian Burial by John Cardinal O’Connor. […] > A spokesman for the Cardinal told the press “holding such a Mass was ruled out because of the notoriety of Castellano’s death and his alleged - and I underline the word alleged - connection to the organized crime syndicate.” > > Citing cannon [!! canon] law, he added, “A person who has not led a Catholic life or has been involved in a public life not in keeping with the teachings of the church … would be denied the liturgical farewell of the church.” In lieu of a Mass, prayers were said at the graveside. In addition to being denied a Mass of Christian Burial, he was also refused burial in St. John’s Cemetery, the family’s first choice. > > A double slight and an odd refusal, given the cemetery’s acceptance of so many others. Hmm, I wonder where San Diego crime boss [Frank “the Bomp” Bompensiero](http://crimemagazine.com/bomp.htm) was buried after the successful mob hit on him in 1977? I’ve got no problem with the Catholic Church ruling that people who don’t follow their teachings can’t participate in their sacraments and ceremonies, even if I don’t agree with their positions. However, I have to agree that giving Catholic funerals to mob bosses while denying them to gay nightclub owners, on account of the nature of their “business activity”, simply reeks of hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/30 "2005-03-19T12:39:32Z")
What’s their policy on burying child molesting priests? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/31 "2005-03-19T14:38:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Sorry, but I’m not outraged the slightest bit. It’s not like it’s mandatory to belong to the catholic church, or a big secret that said church has an issue with homosexuality, or a fundamental human right to get a catholic burial. **Clair** , this craniorectal inversion is unlike your normal clear thinking. Nobody is saying that McCosker has some fundamental human right to the services of the Catholic Church, nor that it has issues with homosexuality. It’s saying that someone who regarded himself as Catholic while alive, should then be denied a Catholic funeral and burial. And that they’re not practicing the pious platitudes that are found in their own Catechism. If they had excommunicated him while alive, that’s one thing. Contrary to what I consider good Christian principles, and to their own canon law, but understandable. But suddenly a grandstanding diocesan Chancellor is using his death to make a statement. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/32 "2005-03-19T15:29:53Z")
You know, I’m tempted to see this as a _good_ thing. Let me explain. I’m told one of the things which led to Vermont legalizing gay marriages is a story about a man whose family had his body moved and refused to tell his partner of some 20 or 25 years where he was buried. This brought it home to some folks just how few rights homosexual couples have with regard to each other; legally, the man’s partner had no right to learn where his partner was buried and the owners of the cemetary had no obligation to tell him because legally they weren’t related. This could work the same way. If this one aspect of his life so greatly outweighs every other aspect, then maybe people will realize just how ridiculous this prejudice is. What’s particularly outrageous is the reason he wasn’t allowed to be buried because of any homosexual acts he may or may not have committed (the article doesn’t say and at 31 I know I was unmarried and celibate as I was for most of my 20s and 30s), but because he owned one night club which drew a mostly homosexual crowd 7 nights a week and one which is mixed, primarily heterosexual on Friday nights and primarily homosexual on Saturday nights, at least according to the article. **Otto** , I can’t tell you how sorry I am. All I can do is keep working to get things to change. CJ ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/33 "2005-03-19T15:44:09Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > This is the Pit, right? > > **Mr. Moto** , the reason **gobear** is upset about this is that \*\*gobear \*\*possesses a trait called empathy. Empathy is the ability to be aware of the thoughts and feelings of someone else. (I realize that this is a difficult concept for you. I can give you a few citations if necessary). While I imagine that **gobear** would not care at all whether or not the RCC would bury him after he’s dead, **gobear** also recognises that a formal Roman Catholic funeral is very important to many people. Those of us who are capable of empathy realize that even though both we and John McCusker are not actually affected by this decision in any meaningful way, denying someone their preferred form of last rites to “avoid public scandal” is a shitty thing to do. Sadly, I suspect you are wasting your time attempting to explain empathy to **Mr. Moto**. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/34 "2005-03-19T16:11:49Z")
It is strange that mob bosses and assassins get a Catholic funeral and burial, while a gay bar owner does not. And then he is posthumously excommunicated too? That’s stupid and spiteful. It must be nice for this “church official” if he is so perfect as to be able to judge everyone else. So there you have it, it’s OK to kill people, but not OK to run a bar of the “wrong type”. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/35 "2005-03-19T16:21:45Z")
> [@Darkhold](#): > > ummm what exactly is the problem here? > > I mean it sucks and all but it’s not like the Catholic Church has been gay friendly up to this point. Their church their rules. Going to be upset the next time Jewish clergy refuse to bury a man with tattoos? I think you mean “a man with tattoos on his bacon.” ;j ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/36 "2005-03-19T18:17:20Z")
> [@Johnny Bravo](#): > > That’s a myth. Getting a tattoo isn’t considered more dreadful than, say, eating a ham sandwich. > > Doesn’t change your overall point. Just fighting a little ignorance. I disagree. It isn’t a universal practice among all rabbis and cemeteries. But, there are places which will refuse to accept a corpse with a tatoo. IIRC If the person is a convert who got the tatoo before converting to Judaism, the may be buried but only in a special section of the cemetery. ---
**Author:** ![Feydeau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/df788c/32.png) [@Feydeau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feydeau)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/37 "2005-03-19T18:43:39Z")
(slight hijack) > [@gigi](#): > > celibate gay laity. Band name! (we now return you to your Pit thread) ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/38 "2005-03-22T15:58:51Z")
A week after the fact, the bishop has [apologized](http://www.365gay.com/newscon05/03/032205sanDiego.htm) and offered to conduct a memorial mass. Which was, I suppose, a nice thing for him to do. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/39 "2005-03-22T17:35:08Z")
I hope McCusker’s family tells the bishop to shove his mass up his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162/40 "2005-03-22T17:41:54Z")
Based on this and some other recent cases, not to hijack things, ‘dying satisfactorily’ is actually kind of hard to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apparently-we-cant-even-die-satisfactorily/295162.md?page=1)