# Appeals court lifts ban on Sherriff Arpaio's workplace raids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056 "2016-05-06T12:27:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/21 "2016-05-08T06:34:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > One could say that all police precincts devote too much effort to things not having to do with violent crime. For example, I’d love to know why police put so much resources into vice. But that’s their prerogative and they are accountable to local voters for that. It could very well be that Maricopa voters consider the problems of illegal immigration and the associated ills(identity theft, unlicensed drivers, human trafficking, etc.) to be Maricopa’s biggest problem. Otherwise Arpaio wouldn’t keep winning. Immegrants (including illegals) have a \*lower \*crime rate than citizens. > **[6 Dumb Myths People Constantly Believe About Immigration](https://www.cracked.com/article_23872_6-dumb-myths-people-constantly-believe-about-immigration.html)** > > Whether you have a 'live and let live' approach or you're convinced that every person with a foreign accent is destroying this country from within, you're probably operating under some false assumptions about the issue. \*In truth, not only do high levels of immigration bring crime rates down, but but undocumented immigrants commit crimes at a far lower rate than native-born Americans. \* > **[Crime rises among second-generation immigrants as they assimilate](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/15/crime-rises-among-second-generation-immigrants-as-they-assimilate/)** > > Second-generation immigrants are just “catching up” with the rest of us, a new study says. \*The crime rate among first-generation immigrants—those who came to this country from somewhere else—is significantly lower than the overall crime rate and that of the second generation. It’s even lower for those in their teens and early 20s, the age range when criminal involvement peaks. \* ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/22 "2016-05-08T06:44:25Z")
Immigrants is a much wider group than illegal immigrants, and the illegal immigrant trade does in fact bring a lot of crime with it. Someone has to get them over the border(human traffickers), someone has to give them fake documents(identity theft rings), someone has to employ them(employers who keep the wages of the rest of us down by using illegal almost-slave labor). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/23 "2016-05-08T14:09:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Immigrants is a much wider group than illegal immigrants, and the illegal immigrant trade does in fact bring a lot of crime with it. Someone has to get them over the border(human traffickers), someone has to give them fake documents(identity theft rings), someone has to employ them(employers who keep the wages of the rest of us down by using illegal almost-slave labor). Yes and we all see how diligently people like Arpaio goes after them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/24 "2016-05-08T15:18:25Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > One could say that all police precincts devote too much effort to things not having to do with violent crime. For example, I’d love to know why police put so much resources into vice. But that’s their prerogative and they are accountable to local voters for that. It could very well be that Maricopa voters consider the problems of illegal immigration and the associated ills(identity theft, unlicensed drivers, human trafficking, etc.) to be Maricopa’s biggest problem. Otherwise Arpaio wouldn’t keep winning. The mayor metropolitan newspaper in Phoenix has called Arpaio a “bully with a badge”. Even the Republican senators from the state told the republican candidates for president to stay a way from him as in recent years all of Arpaio’s chickens have come home to roost. One should stop being an enabler of racism and realize that a lot of the people that voted for Arpaio are indeed racist. BTW a lot of the “vice” does include the drug war, that historically and in many current forms, has also prejudice as one reason why it appeared and why it continues to this day. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/25 "2016-05-08T16:17:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Immigrants is a much wider group than illegal immigrants, and the illegal immigrant trade does in fact bring a lot of crime with it. ). Cite that illegals increase the crime rate, please. I just showed two cites that indicate they dont. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/26 "2016-05-09T02:34:22Z")
No you didn’t. You cited immigrants as a whole. Since legal immigrants are background checked, it would make sense that legal immigrants would have less crime than the native born. I’ve tried to find cites on illegal immigration and have been unable to. However, the crime syndicates that support illegal immigration are a very real thing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/27 "2016-05-14T11:30:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite that illegals increase the crime rate, please. I just showed two cites that indicate they dont. In addition to what adhere replied, they increase the crime rate if they commit _any_ crime. If they were back where they belong and not in the U.S. then all those crimes they do commit would not be happening. Bu,t anytime a crime is committed by even one of them, our crime rate increases. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/28 "2016-05-14T12:59:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > In addition to what adhere replied, they increase the crime rate if they commit _any_ crime. If they were back where they belong and not in the U.S. then all those crimes they do commit would not be happening. Bu,t anytime a crime is committed by even one of them, our crime rate increases. The crime _rate_ does not increase, only the total number of crimes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/29 "2016-05-15T11:09:25Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > The crime _rate_ does not increase, only the total number of crimes. Yes, my mistake. The _amount_ of crime increases, which was my point. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/30 "2016-05-15T13:23:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yes, my mistake. The _amount_ of crime increases, which was my point. And if you substitute in the average distribution of Americans for the immigrants, the total crimes go up even more. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/31 "2016-05-15T18:23:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And if you substitute in the average distribution of Americans for the immigrants, the total crimes go up even more. So? Your argument seems to be a classic misdirect. First, no one claims that there is a problem with immigrants, but _illegal_ immigrants. Second, see my previous post. One way we should have less crime is to not allow _illegals_ to be here. And thats true regardless of the rate at which they commit crime. Your use of “immigrants”, generically, is simply a straw-fabricated attempt to confuse the issue. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/32 "2016-05-15T18:45:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So? Your argument seems to be a classic misdirect. First, no one claims that there is a problem with immigrants, but _illegal_ immigrants. Second, see my previous post. One way we should have less crime is to not allow _illegals_ to be here. And thats true regardless of the rate at which they commit crime. > > Your use of “immigrants”, generically, is simply a straw-fabricated attempt to confuse the issue. [From here.](http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/special-reports/criminalization-immigration-united-states) > [@](#): > > For more than a century, innumerable studies have confirmed two simple yet powerful truths about the relationship between immigration and crime: immigrants are less likely to commit serious crimes or be behind bars than the native-born, and high rates of immigration are associated with lower rates of violent crime and property crime. This holds true for both legal immigrants and the unauthorized, regardless of their country of origin or level of education. In other words, the overwhelming majority of immigrants are not “criminals” by any commonly accepted definition of the term. For this reason, harsh immigration policies are not effective in fighting crime. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/33 "2016-05-15T22:56:43Z")
Too bad there aren’t any unbiased immigration think tanks. The fact is, illegals only commit fewer crimes if you leave out the ones they “have” to commit, plus ignore the fact that the nature of their crimes is that they only exist if the government bothers to go after them. If the government actually arrested every immigrant with fraudulent employment documents(a felony), then the crime rate would go way up. And no, as an earlier poster claimed, this is not a victimless crime: > **[Illegal immigrants turn to identity theft](https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22562690)** > > When U.S. Air Force veteran Marcos Miranda had his identity stolen, he went from being a valued customer and employee to a government statistic. And identity theft complaints just happen to coincide with the states with the most illegal immigration. > **[Illegal, but Not Undocumented](https://cis.org/Report/Illegal-Not-Undocumented)** > > This Backgrounder examines illegal immigration-related document fraud and identity theft that is committed primarily for the purpose of employment. Arizona is #1, so it would appear that this is a legitimate issue they are trying to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/34 "2016-05-16T05:40:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And identity theft complaints just happen to coincide with the states with the most illegal immigration. > > [http://cis.org/IdentityTheft](http://cis.org/IdentityTheft) > > Arizona is #1, so it would appear that this is a legitimate issue they are trying to deal with. Everyone who has ever eaten a tomato has died or will die. So there’s definitely a case that eating tomatoes coincides with death. Should we ban tomatoes, in your opinion, **adaher**? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/35 "2016-05-16T05:42:25Z")
Poor logic. Tomatoes don’t cause death. The presence of a population that needs work but can’t legally get work without documents creates an identity theft industry. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/36 "2016-05-16T05:53:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Poor logic. Tomatoes don’t cause death. The presence of a population that needs work but can’t legally get work without documents creates an identity theft industry. Do you have a cite that tomatoes don’t cause death? Because I’ve shown unequivocally that, people who eat tomatoes eventually results die; the coincidence is undeniable. So since tomato consumption and death are two events that we know coincide, shouldn’t there be some sort of ban on tomato consumption? Why or why not? > [@adaher](#): > > The presence of a population that needs work but can’t legally get work without documents creates an identity theft industry. That’s the second assertion that you’ve made in your brief post; do you have a cite for this one too? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/37 "2016-05-16T05:58:57Z")
Ah, you believe in the document fairy I see. Next you’ll tell me that cocaine doesn’t come from drug dealers. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/38 "2016-05-16T06:56:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > . . . The presence of a population that needs work but can’t legally get work without documents creates an identity theft industry. I’d be willing to accept that it creates an identity fraud industry, but not that it creates an identity theft industry. A fake ID card doesn’t necessarily have to duplicate someone else’s valid ID card. Also, of course, even if all you say is true…that’s an argument for comprehensive immigration reform, which would both close the border and provide a pathway to legalization, thus removing the market for fake IDs. Congress, by refusing to act, only perpetuates this problem. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/39 "2016-05-16T07:51:29Z")
Congress refuses to do actual border security. Their idea of acting is to simply amnesty those who are here, but keep the identity theft rings in business handling new border crossers. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056/40 "2016-05-16T08:00:24Z")
Arpaio certainly hasn’t had trouble finding identity thieves. The federal government thinks he’s too successful, which is an argument I’d love to see a Democrat endorse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/appeals-court-lifts-ban-on-sherriff-arpaios-workplace-raids/754056.md?page=3)