# Apple/Ireland tax deal nixed by EU **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484 "2016-08-30T15:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/41 "2016-09-01T09:37:52Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Just so I understand here: > > Ireland can not set preferential tax treatment for individual companies, and this is codified in the EU law? > > And the mechanism for addressing an infraction is to retroactively punish the company? LOL at “punishment” - Ireland offered Apple a free ticket to the lottery. It didn’t cost Apple anything and the transient Irish gov of the day took a punt on Apple’s behalf. Now everyone holds their hands to their face in mock surprise at the law being, you know, the law 😃 It was a shot to nothing for Apple. Now they get to pay the same as everyone else, same as i pay what my neighbour pays. It’s the absolute nature of capitalism to keep pushing, just keep pushing: all part of the game. Happy days. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/42 "2016-09-01T13:27:39Z")
Thought I’d post this interesting view of a tax expert in response to Tim Cook’s open letter: [https://www.fastcompany.com/3063340/a-tax-expert-rips-tim-cooks-eu-letter-apart-point-by-point](https://www.fastcompany.com/3063340/a-tax-expert-rips-tim-cooks-eu-letter-apart-point-by-point) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/43 "2016-09-01T16:07:06Z")
And in Silicone Valley, here’s an implication of the tax policies supported by Apple in other jurisdictions: [America’s Biggest Homeless Camp Is Cleared](http://news.sky.com/story/americas-biggest-homeless-camp-is-cleared-10380093) > [@](#): > > Despite promises to help find accommodation for those in need, relief is likely to be temporary as San Jose has more than 200 homeless encampments. Is this the 1930s Depression or modern capitalism? Fuck you, Tim Cook. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/44 "2016-09-01T16:53:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Why wouldn’t a difference in cost or regulatory burden have an impact on job creation? Do you know why Apple, or any other company creates jobs? It isn’t to give thanks to the government for low taxes. It is because they need to do it to expand their business. A top-down approach is the wrong way to look at things. Apple would be nothing without their customers. Without people who want Iphones and Ipads, Apple would be out of business, even if they were exempt from taxes completely. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/45 "2016-09-01T17:10:18Z")
What’s the real cost to Apple of the EU’s decision? Doesn’t the US tax code provide a credit for foreign tax paid? In other words, won’t Apple just offset the higher tax paid in Ireland with lower tax paid in the US? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/46 "2016-09-01T17:48:37Z")
As long as the profits aren’t repatriated to the US, they don’t have to pay their share of taxes on that amount. Tim Cook recently said they would repatriate its profits to the US next year… presumably as a result of the EU ruling. > **[Apple boss expects to repatriate billions to the US next year](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/01/apple-boss-tim-cook-repatriate-billions-to-us-treasury-next-year)** > > Revelation that tech firm will pay deferred taxes to US Treasury follows Tim Cook’s previous refusal to support such a move > [@](#): > > Like many large US multinationals, Apple has for decades been pooling its non-US profits outside of America. Under loopholes in the tax laws, corporations can defer US taxes continually so long as income is not repatriated to America. > > In July, Apple told investors its cash pile held offshore had reached $214.8bn (£162.2bn). This is the largest of any US company. > [@](#): > > Until now, Cook had consistently said Apple would not repatriate profits to the US until Washington slashed the US tax rate. > > Last December, in an interview for US television programme 60 Minutes, Cook said he would “love to” repatriate Apple’s offshore cash. Asked why he doesn’t, he said: “Because it would cost me 40% to bring it home. And I don’t think that’s a reasonable thing to do.” ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/47 "2016-09-01T19:15:00Z")
The huge US tech corporations scare me like the ‘too big to fail’ bankers did of a decade ago - the self styled Masters of the Universe. These are mostly deluded ‘the normal rules don’t apply’ cockheads lost in their own delusional narcissism. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/48 "2016-09-01T21:45:26Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But arguing that they get to keep the state aid because they’re a “foreign corporation”? There’s no milage in that. The whole point of the competition regime is to provide a level playing field. Arguing that foreign corporations are exempt from the consequences of non-compliance completely misses the point. I’m arguing it is the state’s fault for offering an illegal tax aid. Irrland broke the law; not Apple. Ireland should recompense the EU for it is the entity at fault. Ireland is the actor which must comply with the EU competition law. Why is Apple retroactively paying for Ireland’s illegal activity? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/49 "2016-09-01T21:58:53Z")
🆒 > [@Stringbean](#): > > I’m arguing it is the state’s fault for offering an illegal tax aid. Irrland broke the law; not Apple. Ireland should recompense the EU for it is the entity at fault. > > Ireland is the actor which must comply with the EU competition law. Why is Apple retroactively paying for Ireland’s illegal activity? The EU has no financial role in this 😕 It wasn’t “offered” it was negotiated off the back of Apple offering employment, European HQ, etc, etc, etc. Apple initiated and colluded in the scam ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/50 "2016-09-01T22:01:18Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > As long as the profits aren’t repatriated to the US, they don’t have to pay their share of taxes on that amount. Tim Cook recently said they would repatriate its profits to the US next year… presumably as a result of the EU ruling. > > [Apple boss expects to repatriate billions to the US next year | Corporate governance | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/sep/01/apple-boss-tim-cook-repatriate-billions-to-us-treasury-next-year) or maybe not: > [@](#): > > Hillary Clinton, has also hinted that she might lower the corporate tax rate. She has closer ties to Apple than Trump. Cook held a fundraiser for Clinton on 24 August. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/51 "2016-09-02T00:37:43Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Unfortunately higher tax rates don’t necessarily translate into better roads, better schools, or better government services either. > This is funny - you seem to think that CA had low tax rates before Brown. > [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not true. For instance Vermont spends twice as much per citizen as New Hampshire and they rank lower on the quality of their roads, and lower in educational attainment. It seems like New Hampshire has a more efficient government. Anecdotally you can find one state with high taxes with shittier roads than one state with lower taxes. On average with all things being, more tax revenue means better services. You may not give a shit about some of those services (medicaid, welfare, schools, etc.) but those things all count don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/52 "2016-09-02T00:44:31Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Why isn’t the state (the entity acting under the auspices of EU law) the one required to recompense? > > Apple is a foreign corporation negotiating with a government it seeks to conduct business with. It is _their_ responsibility to retroactively pay for Ireland’s illegal tax preferences? > > Are we only willing to accept this injustice because it’s _insert evil large multinational here_? Its only an injustice if you ignore the law in place. Ideally both apple and Ireland would pay. Apple would pay its taxes to Ireland and Ireland would pay some portion of those taxes to the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/53 "2016-09-02T00:59:52Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > What’s the real cost to Apple of the EU’s decision? Doesn’t the US tax code provide a credit for foreign tax paid? In other words, won’t Apple just offset the higher tax paid in Ireland with lower tax paid in the US? Generally speaking, this is true if and when that income becomes taxable in the USA. So, lets say you earn $100 in Ireland and pay $12.50. You do not get a credit of $12.50 on your US taxes until you pay US taxes on that $100 of income. There are half a dozen ways to postpone (sometimes indefinitely) the moment when you must pay taxes on that $100 of income. Apple makes sure that the US income tax is postponed indefinitely on that income. This is why people argue that lowering the tax rate on income earned abroad would increase tax receipts. People use those opportunities to bring their income back to the US (like when Bush lowered the corporate tax rate on this income to 5%, the corporate tax revenue went up because corporations were faced with a choice of paying 5% now or 35% later (or never repatriate that money). So corporations repatriated as much as they thought they would need for the forseeable future and only paid 1/7th of the taxes they would have had to pay in the normal course. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/54 "2016-09-02T01:02:26Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > As long as the profits aren’t repatriated to the US, they don’t have to pay their share of taxes on that amount. Tim Cook recently said they would repatriate its profits to the US next year… presumably as a result of the EU ruling. 12.5% is STILL lower than 35%. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/55 "2016-09-02T01:13:19Z")
You have fallen to the zero sum economics trap. Apple doesn’t have to fire anyone to make jobs in ireland then can hire people there too and just grow. The fact that there is a tax incentive involved means that they can grow more and hire more than they could of elsewhere. If the incentive didn’t exist they would grow slower or possibly even shrink. Who benefits? Everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Desert\_Nomad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desert_nomad/32/177_2.png) [@Desert\_Nomad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desert_Nomad)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/56 "2016-09-02T01:25:42Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Well, we have to do something at international level - multi-nationals are leading us around in circles and ending up paying 1% corporation tax. Corporations should pay zero tax. Any tax they pay is simply passed on to consumers with increased prices and thus is a hidden tax on people. It would be better to have the end user pay tax since then they would really know how much tax they are paying. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/57 "2016-09-02T01:26:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I’m arguing it is the state’s fault for offering an illegal tax aid. Irrland broke the law; not Apple. Ireland should recompense the EU for it is the entity at fault. > > Ireland is the actor which must comply with the EU competition law. Why is Apple retroactively paying for Ireland’s illegal activity? Couple of misconceptions: First, nobody is recompensing the EU. The back taxes that Apple has to pay will go to the Irish state. Secondly, it’s misleadingly selective to say that Ireland has to comply with EU competition law, if that implies that Apple doesn’t have to. Of course Apple has to comply with EU competition law, if it wants to operate in the EU, just like it has to comply with US anti-trust law if it wants to operate in the US. No crime has been committed here, and no fine is being imposed. The provision of an illegal state aid was, well, illegal. The tax ruling which Apple sought and obtained is inconsistent with EU competition law and, therefore, invalid. Apple’s tax liability on its Irish activities is now be recalculated on the basis of a correct understanding of the law. Since Apple has been booking substantial profits in Ireland for the past 27 years, the cumulative tax arrears are very large. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/58 "2016-09-02T02:06:57Z")
For its consciously illegal behavior, Ireland gets $15 billion from Apple. Lesson learned, folks. Don’t do business in the EU. Even the past isn’t behind you. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/59 "2016-09-02T02:17:10Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > Thought I’d post this interesting view of a tax expert in response to Tim Cook’s open letter: > > [https://www.fastcompany.com/3063340/a-tax-expert-rips-tim-cooks-eu-letter-apart-point-by-point](https://www.fastcompany.com/3063340/a-tax-expert-rips-tim-cooks-eu-letter-apart-point-by-point) > [@Article](#): > > Like many of the most sophisticated tax-avoiding companies in the world, they pushed the limits of what the law would allow. They set up a set of subsidiaries whose purpose was almost entirely to avoid paying taxes. And they subsequently received a ruling that the setup was within Irish law…It makes no difference that Ireland cheerfully agreed to it. It’s still a tax dodge, just a state-sanctioned tax dodge A tax expert with a very antilegal understanding of taxation. It can’t, by definition, be a tax dodge if it operates within the legal framework sanctioned by the state and is upheld in court. Bullshit article from a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2016, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484/60 "2016-09-02T02:40:59Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > For its consciously illegal behavior, Ireland gets $15 billion from Apple. The Commission finding does not suggest that Ireland (or Apple) was conscious of the illegality. Also worth noting that this is disavantageous to Ireland, and they are considering an appeal. The ability to grant tax rulings of this kind, and have them effective and enforceable, is worth more that €13 billion to Ireland. But don’t let facts get in the way of the chip on your shoulder! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-ireland-tax-deal-nixed-by-eu/764484.md?page=4)