# Apple’s antitrust behavior here with the Palm Pre is pretty odious **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 15, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157 "2009-07-15T21:47:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/1 "2009-07-15T21:47:02Z")
Formerly, the Palm Pre phone was able to sync with iTunes libraries as if it were an iPod. In the latest update to iTunes, Apple has apparently disabled this functionality. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124768832987747365.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124768832987747365.html) Clearly, it is technologically possible, even easy, for the Palm Pre to be synched in a fashion similar to an actual iPod or iPhone. The only logical explanation is that Apple is choosing to leverage its current market leading position on existing portable music devices and downloaded music libraries to shut out competitors to its products. If you were ever the type to cry foul over Microsoft’s inclusion of a software browser on Windows (not a product that blocked the user from running Netscape to be clear, merely provided a free and convenient alternative), should you be directing a bit of opprobrium at Apple for this slimy move? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/2 "2009-07-15T23:13:36Z")
It’s hard to work up outrage over this one. Since the beginning of computing, companies have used proprietary cabling, encrypted interfaces, obscure protocols, and other tricks to make sure that only _their_ hardware works with _their_ software (or vice-versa). It’s an ongoing game. In the old days, I reverse-engineered a number of interfaces (as Palm obviously did), and did it knowing full well that the company would change it at some point to lock my system back out. Yes, I get upset when companies try to leverage their monopolies in one industry to take over another, or when they use monopoly positions to lock potential competitors out of the industry. But when Apple sets up their music store and their music player to work together, why is it anti-trust to keep that connection proprietary? Side question: Can the Pre work with Microsoft’s music store by pretending to be a Xune? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/3 "2009-07-15T23:16:40Z")
My opinion? Data formats and interconnection protocols ought to be open. I admit that that doesn’t always occur… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/4 "2009-07-15T23:22:06Z")
**threemae** , I think you are confused about the meaning of the term _anti-trust_. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/5 "2009-07-16T00:47:49Z")
This is nothing new. Apple has been much more slimy and despicable than Microsoft ever dreamt of being since it’s inception. Of course 90% of the population is too daft to notice this and it’s not fashionable to point the fact out. ---
**Author:** ![Sleel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/73ab20/32.png) [@Sleel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleel)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/6 "2009-07-16T01:58:54Z")
The Pre [masqueraded as an iPod](http://daringfireball.net/2009/06/webos_itunes_integration) to get the syncing to work in iTunes instead of writing their own software to do it. The iTunes library file is an open-source XML format, all of the directories are directly accessible by both the user and any third-party. Apple had a [standing warning](http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3642) that interoperability with iTunes is subject to change at any time. Palm could have written their own sync software. They didn’t. Apple broke their hack. Boo-hoo. Whether the changes are intentional or unintentional is completely beside the point. It was a hack not supported by the iTunes software. If they break your unsupported hack, you don’t get to whine about it. Write your own damn software instead of piggybacking. This is especially true if you want the feature to work reliably, since relying on another company’s good will and tolerance is pretty risky. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/7 "2009-07-16T02:06:09Z")
Apple is no more noble or anything else than Microsoft. They were just historically less successful at screwing people over in the personal computer market. Happily for them, they found their niche to successfully act mercenary in. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/8 "2009-07-16T02:07:52Z")
I’m with **Sleel** here. I see nothing to be outraged about. Palm defiantly (and without permission or support) decided to use another company’s software to sync their device, rather than investing their own R&D to write their own software. And why should I be upset that Apple has decided to allow only their devices to use their software? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/9 "2009-07-16T07:10:18Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I’m with **Sleel** here. I see nothing to be outraged about. Palm defiantly (and without permission or support) decided to use another company’s software to sync their device, rather than investing their own R&D to write their own software. And why should I be upset that Apple has decided to allow only their devices to use their software? This is why Apple people are so hilarious. La-la-la-la-la-la… ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/10 "2009-07-16T08:36:17Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > I’m with **Sleel** here. I see nothing to be outraged about. Palm defiantly (and without permission or support) decided to use another company’s software to sync their device, rather than investing their own R&D to write their own software. They’re trying to let their smartphone access the biggest music vendor in the United States. They cannot do so without interfacing with Apple’s software at some point. > [@](#): > > And why should I be upset that Apple has decided to allow only their devices to use their software? Because Apple claims to support DRM-free music, so enforcing their iTunes Store - iTunes - iPod vertical monopoly seems rather hypocritical? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/11 "2009-07-16T15:53:29Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This is why Apple people are so hilarious. La-la-la-la-la-la… If Microsoft would have done something similar, would the Apple people have seen no problem, either? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/12 "2009-07-16T16:01:24Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > If Microsoft would have done something similar, would the Apple people have seen no problem, either? Yahoo! was on the receiving end the last time I heard about something like this - back when AOL was encoding AIM so that only Yahoo! Messenger users couldn’t access AIM buddylists through Yahoo!'s software. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/13 "2009-07-16T16:30:31Z")
To play Apple’s side: Why should my company have to foot the bill to maintain compatibility with all of my competitors? Why should I have to worry about providing customer support for Pre users? Sounds like a headache. Easy solution: Only let my own devices, which people expect me to support, to access my software. That way, I don’t get dragged into everyone else’s cockamamie BS, over which I have no control. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/14 "2009-07-16T16:33:32Z")
> [@toadspittle](#): > > To play Apple’s side: Why should my company have to foot the bill to maintain compatibility with all of my competitors? Why should I have to worry about providing customer support for Pre users? Sounds like a headache. Easy solution: Only let my own devices, which people expect me to support, to access my software. That way, I don’t get dragged into everyone else’s cockamamie BS, over which I have no control. Apple wasn’t doing any of that stuff. Palm’s software allowed its device to fool iTunes into thinking it was an iPod. That’s Palm’s lookout, not Apple’s. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/15 "2009-07-16T17:06:20Z")
[From Engadget.com](http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/15/itunes-8-2-1-brings-pres-music-syncing-capability-to-a-halt/), it appears that you can play your Itunes purchased music and videos, you just have to add them in manually, as opposed to syncing with Itunes. I don’t see the big deal. I wouldn’t buy an Iphone expecting to be able to use Palm’s app to sync my calender and contacts. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/16 "2009-07-16T17:29:02Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > My opinion? Data formats and interconnection protocols ought to be open. I agree in general, but I see nothing ethically wrong with Apple’s decision. > [@Really Not all That Bright](#): > > Apple wasn’t doing any of that stuff. Palm’s software allowed its device to fool iTunes into thinking it was an iPod. That’s Palm’s lookout, not Apple’s. If you (“you” meaning the person who got the phone for Christmas from your kid) plug something into the computer, and know you need to go to iTunes to use it, and it doesn’t work, are you going to blame the manufacturer or the maker of the software you actually interact with? > [@gruuman](#): > > Because Apple claims to support DRM-free music, so enforcing their iTunes Store - iTunes - iPod vertical monopoly seems rather hypocritical? I think the fact they sell DRM-free music supports their claim that they support DRM-free music. Not that DRM has anything to do with the Palm Pre not working with iTunes software. I am generally an Apple fan and I don’t like the way they lock down their iTunes/iPod stuff, but I can’t see the problem here. And FWIW, I saw no problem with Microsoft bundling IE with Windows, either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/17 "2009-07-16T17:35:15Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > If you (“you” meaning the person who got the phone for Christmas from your kid) plug something into the computer, and know you need to go to iTunes to use it, and it doesn’t work, are you going to blame the manufacturer or the maker of the software you actually interact with? Well, that depends. Are “you” stupid? If Windows doesn’t recognize my new USB joystick, I blame Microsoft. However, iTunes isn’t an operating system, and Apple doesn’t guarantee or even offer compatibility with non-Apple peripherals, as far as I can tell. Anyway, what’s stopping “you” from dragging and dropping your music onto your Palm? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/18 "2009-07-16T17:36:34Z")
On the one hand, I agree that Apple shouldn’t be under any obligation to make their software work with someone elses music player. On the other o hand, if I understand correctly, Apple released an update to iTunes whose sole purpose was to break compatibility with the Palm. There is something perverse about having your customers download an update whose sole purpose is to make the product less useful. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/19 "2009-07-16T17:38:43Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > On the other o hand, if I understand correctly, Apple released an update to iTunes whose sole purpose was to break compatibility with the Palm. There is something perverse about having your customers download an update whose sole purpose is to make the product less useful. Meh. iPod owners won’t care, and Palm owners get some equally shitty proprietary software from Palm in a few weeks that will sync their phones and probably convert .aac files or something. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157/20 "2009-07-16T17:42:17Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Formerly, the Palm Pre phone was able to sync with iTunes libraries as if it were an iPod. In the latest update to iTunes, Apple has apparently disabled this functionality. [snip] The only logical explanation is that Apple is choosing to leverage its current market leading position on existing portable music devices and downloaded music libraries to shut out competitors to its products. I think you don’t understand technology very well. iTunes is an application designed \*by Apple \*to interface with _their iPod device_. They are under no obligation to support any other hardware. No one is stopping Palm from making their own software. There is nothing that prevents you from manually uploading music that you’ve purchased through iTunes to your Pre. All Apple is doing is preventing someone else from piggybacking off their work. (FWIW, I’ve never owned a Mac and never plan to.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apple-s-antitrust-behavior-here-with-the-palm-pre-is-pretty-odious/503157.md?page=2)