# Apples & Cinnamon **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 11, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238 "2015-11-11T00:07:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![threeorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@threeorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threeorange)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/1 "2015-11-11T00:07:25Z")
When and where did the sacred union of apples and cinnamon first take place? ---
**Author:** ![donkeyoatey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@donkeyoatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donkeyoatey)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/2 "2015-11-11T02:07:47Z")
The orange ones shall never know. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/3 "2015-11-11T02:54:11Z")
It looks like cinnamon has been in common use since roughly 2000 BC (that we know) and was popular through the Middle East. Apples seem to have spread from Eastern Turkey - which is not exactly far from the Middle East - and presumably existed from before mankind started to settle down into civilizations. So the most likely guess would be that apples were first paired with cinnamon somewhere in the Assyrian Empire around 2000 BC. But it would take a bit more searching to find the oldest **known** recipe with both included. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/4 "2015-11-11T03:26:13Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It looks like cinnamon has been in common use since roughly 2000 BC (that we know) and was popular through the Middle East. > > Apples seem to have spread from Eastern Turkey - which is not exactly far from the Middle East - and presumably existed from before mankind started to settle down into civilizations. > > So the most likely guess would be that apples were first paired with cinnamon somewhere in the Assyrian Empire around 2000 BC. But it would take a bit more searching to find the oldest **known** recipe with both included. Apples are native to Kazakhstan, I believe. They may have spread to Europe THROUGH Turkey though. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/5 "2015-11-11T05:30:11Z")
Cinnamon is native to the Indian subcontinent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/6 "2015-11-11T10:18:36Z")
Most of the Medieval recipes I know for apples don’t actually call for cinnamon directly, they use other specific spices like galingale, sandalwood, saffron, anise … while others just call for “spices”, which in context mean[poudre douce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-douce). While that includes cinnamon, it isn’t necessarily the dominant component The earliest one I know that specifies cinnamon is Rennaissance: [To make pies of grene apples](http://www.godecookery.com/trscript/trsct014.html) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/7 "2015-11-11T10:22:55Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Cinnamon is native to the Indian subcontinent. There are _many_ cinnamons. Some are more strictly called cassia, but earlier writers didn’t make the distinction and would have considered them _all_ cinnamon. And most people would be unable to detect a taste difference. Some cassias are native to Arabia and Africa, and “true” cinnamon is from Sri Lanka. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/8 "2015-11-11T11:57:16Z")
I’m also wondering when the first cinnamon trees were cross-bred with pine trees to give us the modern cinnamon pine cones. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/9 "2015-11-12T09:30:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Most of the Medieval recipes I know for apples don’t actually call for cinnamon directly, they use other specific spices like galingale, sandalwood, saffron, anise … while others just call for “spices”, which in context mean[poudre douce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder-douce). While that includes cinnamon, it isn’t necessarily the dominant component > The earliest one I know that specifies cinnamon is Rennaissance: [To make pies of grene apples](http://www.godecookery.com/trscript/trsct014.html) Might that have been due to the cost of cinnamon? Spices were quite expensive back then. Was cinnamon an expensive one? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/10 "2015-11-13T13:14:12Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Might that have been due to the cost of cinnamon? Spices were quite expensive back then. Was cinnamon an expensive one? Yes, although _possibly_ somewhat artificially so, as the sources weren’t _quite_ as far off as those for peppers, nutmeg or cloves. Cinnamon was purposefully surrounded with mystique by the Arab traders who supplied the Venetians, Europe’s main spice merchants. Stuff like “Oh, it’s used by the phoenix for its pyre” or "there’s a [giant Roc-like bird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_bird) that makes its nests from cinnamon"and the like… But [by the early 1300s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Montecorvino)Europeans knew[the good stuff came from Sri Lanka and Malabar](http://dsr.nii.ac.jp/toyobunko/III-2-F-b-2/V-1/page/0487.html.en) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/11 "2015-11-13T14:55:19Z")
Since this is about food, let’s move it to Cafe Society. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/12 "2015-11-16T10:53:17Z")
The Persian word for cinnamon is dār chīnī—literally ‘Chinese tree’. Persia being adjacent to the Indian subcontinent and recipient of Indian Ocean trade, if they were getting cinnamon from Sri Lanka I wonder how come they tagged it as a Chinese commodity, when Chinese trade with Persia went via the Silk Road. Along the Silk Road between China and Persia, one of the places is Kazakhstan. If cinnamon was in fact traded on the Silk Road as well as on the Indian Ocean, then the answer to the OP must be Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/that area. Fun fact, the name of Kazakhstan’s former capital Almaty (or Alma-Ata) means ‘Apple Father’. Sure enough, the genetic origin of the apple tree has been traced to just that part of Kazakhstan where Almaty is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-cinnamon/737238/13 "2015-11-16T11:46:26Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The Persian word for cinnamon is dār chīnī—literally ‘Chinese tree’. Persia being adjacent to the Indian subcontinent and recipient of Indian Ocean trade, if they were getting cinnamon from Sri Lanka I wonder how come they tagged it as a Chinese commodity, when Chinese trade with Persia went via the Silk Road. Because like I said, people earlier didn’t make any distinction between true cinnamon and [cassia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamomum_cassia) which is Chinese. It was likely whichever they encountered first or most of - or that Arab traders had a monopoly on Sri Lankan cinnamon, so they sourced theirs via alternate routes. > [@](#): > > Along the Silk Road between China and Persia, one of the places is Kazakhstan. If cinnamon was in fact traded on the Silk Road as well as on the Indian Ocean, then the answer to the OP must be Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/that area. Not _necessarily_. Foods are weird - sometimes people just don’t come up with particular combinations until much later. But I’m not familiar enough with the cuisine of Central Asia to say what their apple dishes are like. I’m not finding much online…