# Apple's open letter to the U.S. Gov't refusing to comply: lines drawn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327 "2016-02-17T11:40:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/81 "2016-02-18T17:46:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > That’s what I don’t get. Even if the FBI asked Apple to change the OS to allow a backdoor, it would do nothing to get information from the phone in question. And I see nothing in the present case that leads me to believe that the government is asking for a general backdoor. Cook bringing it up seems to be a case of him avoiding the question of protecting the rights of a mass murderer and changing it to the question of backdoors, which most people oppose. > > And anyone expecting that their data will be safe if their phone is in the physical possession of the manufacturer is a fool. > > Another way it could be done, btw, is if they can reproduce an image of the phone onto a VM, where they can disable the locking software and try as many passwords as they please. I agree that if doing this or other methods was impossible Cook would only have to say so, and not fight it in court. That he doesn’t makes me think it is possible, but it is not something he wants to admit to. From my reading of Cook’s letter, he is saying that yes, given the phone and enough time and custom software, the phone can be broken in to. Once the correct password has been entered, all the contents (which are currently encrypted on the phone) are available to whoever is holding the phone. Just like an owner. Cook is saying that Apple does not currently have the necessary software to do this. He doesn’t want to develop that software because he knows that if he does this once under a court order, nothing prevents any judge anywhere in the world from ordering Apple to do it again. And as we all know, court orders don’t have to be public. Even if no such order is ever given-highly unlikely-the existence of such a possibility forever damages Apple’s reputation and claim to being a secure system. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/82 "2016-02-18T18:07:42Z")
Cook doesn’t seem to be worried about “hackers”-he has a far bigger threat to deal with: every government in the world. I think worrying about stolen code and secret hackers is missing the big point. The NSA or the Russian hackers don’t have to do anything. Any Federal, State or local cop can get a court order and make Apple do this for them. In fact, just the threat here in the US poses a big problem for Apple. Apple may prevail in US court. I doubt things will turn out the same in China. Basically any country too big for Apple to just walk away from can make this happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/83 "2016-02-18T18:12:30Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And if hackers got it, _they wouldn’t be able to do anything with it anyway_. They wouldn’t be able to install it on a phone because they don’t have Apple’s authentication key. The back-door tool would already be signed with Apple’s authentication key – otherwise it couldn’t be used to break into the original target phone. > [@](#): > > If they did somehow install it, it wouldn’t work, because that phone wouldn’t be Syed Farook’s phone. Operating-system code works on any device with the type of hardware for which it is written. > [@](#): > > They wouldn’t be able to rewrite the app to let it run on other phones, because they don’t have the source code. See above – no “rewriting” necessary. Just crack into the Feds’ computers (embarrassingly easy), download the software, and go! > [@](#): > > And if they somehow bypassed all of those obstacles, they’d _still_ have to figure out your password. The whole purpose of the back-door tool is to enable a fast dictionary attack to obtain the password. Really, you ought to educmacate yourself on the basic technical issues before you dig yourself in any deeper. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/84 "2016-02-18T18:14:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The iPhone is secure against everyone but Apple. Which I think is the reason Apple is fighting this as hard as they are. This case is for a device the FBI has physical access to. But I don’t see any reason Apple couldn’t be forced to comply with a warrant to install surveillance software remotely on a specific device. Properly implemented security could be secure against everyone, including Apple. There’s no magical reason Apple should be able to do as asked. Of course, the real world is full of flaws and problems so that “properly implemented security” is a theoretical ideal rather than an achievable reality. The government is hoping that Apple will find such a flaw and exploit it to get into the phone, but what Apple really wants to do (if that flaw exists) is close it. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/85 "2016-02-18T18:14:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Operating-system code works on any device with the type of hardware for which it is written. …still haven’t read the court order, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/86 "2016-02-18T18:21:01Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > See above – no “rewriting” necessary. Just crack into the Feds’ computers (embarrassingly easy), download the software, and go! Like how this software for iOS 8.1.2 has been out there in the wild for a while now? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/87 "2016-02-18T18:32:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …still haven’t read the court order, have you? Still don’t understand how any of this actually works, do you? the court order is necessarily specific in scope to a single targeted device - no judge would authorize such an order ‘against any device’ - so they narrow the scope to what a judge thinks is reasonable - the scpe of the order does not take into account the technical implications behind it. As to the earlier bit of “how easy this is” - the change at the source level to ‘allow unlimited’ vs ‘x number’ of login attempts is likely _very_ trivial - likely 2, maybe 3 lines of actual code to change (if that - might be a simple comment) - the difficulty is not in that change - the difficulty is in getting it deployed, securing it, etc and so on - again, not even menitoning the needed steps to ‘give only FBI approved access’, testing it, etc - the order is oversimplified by neccesity. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/88 "2016-02-18T18:34:21Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Still don’t understand how any of this actually works, do you? Sorry, I forgot that computers are magic boxes that can do anything and that as soon as “hackers” get this app they’ll steal all our money and naked pictures because computers. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/89 "2016-02-18T18:40:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sorry, I forgot that computers are magic boxes that can do anything and that as soon as “hackers” get this app they’ll steal all our money and naked pictures because computers. Then maybe you ought to do some fucking reading - in this and the other thread - that talks to the complexitiy of this problem instead of just continuing to wallow in your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/90 "2016-02-18T18:51:22Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Then maybe you ought to do some fucking reading - in this and the other thread - that talks to the complexitiy of this problem instead of just continuing to wallow in your ignorance. And perhaps you should read the court order and learn what’s actually being asked of Apple instead of continuing with fantastic assertions about backdoors and hackers. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/91 "2016-02-18T19:09:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And perhaps you should read the court order and learn what’s actually being asked of Apple instead of continuing with fantastic assertions about backdoors and hackers. I’ve already addressed the ‘court order’ and whats being asked - you continue to ignore that the court order is woefully incomplete when it comes to the reality of it. Even if it were as simple/focused as the court order would imply - that still doesn’t answer the bigger implications of them doing it - which you also ignore. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/92 "2016-02-18T19:49:47Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Properly implemented security could be secure against everyone, including Apple. There’s no magical reason Apple should be able to do as asked. > > Of course, the real world is full of flaws and problems so that “properly implemented security” is a theoretical ideal rather than an achievable reality. The government is hoping that Apple will find such a flaw and exploit it to get into the phone, but what Apple really wants to do (if that flaw exists) is close it. Like many things this is a feature, not a bug. The point is that if the OS on the phone is corrupt then you can load something into RAM and reinstall the OS. So if Apple wants to close this flaw then they need to remove that functionality. There might be some clever way of wiping the data before allowing a RAM boot, but probably not. The biggest flaw here is that the password is not cryptographically secure. It’s a four digit code, meaning 10,000 combinations (0-9999). Trivial to break with a brute force attack after the safe guards against a brute force attack are removed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/93 "2016-02-18T19:52:11Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Even if it were as simple/focused as the court order would imply - that still doesn’t answer the bigger implications of them doing it - which you also ignore. The bigger implication is that terrorists and drug lords and human traffickers and pedophiles will no longer be able to use iphones to carry out their evil deeds in secrecy. Why are you opposed to that? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/94 "2016-02-18T21:07:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The bigger implication is that terrorists and drug lords and human traffickers and pedophiles will no longer be able to use iphones to carry out their evil deeds in secrecy. > > Why are you opposed to that? Ignoring the obvious inference in your post - I’m opposed to anything that potentially allows my personal privacy and security to be compromised. While I may trust the government and law enforcement to generally ‘do the right thing’ - we have specific laws and rights encoded into the bedrock of this country that must be defended. One of those is the right to privacy - even from the government. Secondly - even though you try to downplay it, the implications of this kind of modification to the security policy of the iphone has huge implications to the law abiding user base - since once an exploit like that is available - the criminal element will seek to take advantage of it. Have you not read the news reports of scams that are constantly taking advantage of people thru ‘low tech’ phishing ? I am generally ‘not opposed’ to the government getting the data it needs to prosecute evil doers - but not when it seeks to compromise the security of all others by doing so. So, no - the bigger implication is not to the ‘evil doers’ - the bigger implication is to everyday users - you know, law abiding citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/95 "2016-02-18T21:10:22Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I don’t have a problem with the idea that there are things the government can’t get at. We should end the thread with this line. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/96 "2016-02-18T21:12:47Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Secondly - even though you try to downplay it, the implications of this kind of modification to the security policy of the iphone has huge implications to the law abiding user base - since once an exploit like that is available - the criminal element will seek to take advantage of it… > > So, no - the bigger implication is not to the ‘evil doers’ - the bigger implication is to everyday users - you know, law abiding citizens. What you don’t seem to get is that a world in which the government has access to your data is also one in which the government has access to _their_ data. “Hackers” and identity thieves are able to do what they do because their data is secret and untouchable. Your concerns about your “privacy” are aimed in the wrong direction and do more to _endanger_ your security than protect it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/97 "2016-02-18T21:16:28Z")
Personally, I don’t trust the government and law enforcement to generally 'do the right thing." [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/27/politics/nsa-snooping/), for instance, is a story from 2013 about how some NSA personnel used their surveillance technology to snoop on people they know, generally lovers. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/98 "2016-02-18T21:19:37Z")
I can’t tell which side, if either, is over-stating the case. The FBI wants Apple to write an adhoc to hack into this phone to disable the “feature” that erases all data after 10 failed logins. Correct? And the worry is that this adhoc will get out, and hackers will be able to hack into other phones, and/or the government will use it to hack into other phones. Correct? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/99 "2016-02-18T21:19:44Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What you don’t seem to get is that a world in which the government has access to your data is also one in which the government has access to _their_ data. “Hackers” and identity thieves are able to do what they do because their data is secret and untouchable. Your concerns about your “privacy” are aimed in the wrong direction and do more to _endanger_ your security than protect it. and your fucking clueless - you think that if the iphone has an exploit, these guys will suddenly ‘stop’ ??? By my data being insured secure - then these fools can’t get to it - end of story. These folks do what they do _because_ they can get to the data. They will, and always do, expose themselves to law enforcement thru other means. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/100 "2016-02-18T21:21:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I can’t tell which side, if either, is over-stating the case. > > The FBI wants Apple to write an adhoc to hack into this phone to disable the “feature” that erases all data after 10 failed logins. Correct? And the worry is that this adhoc will get out, and hackers will be able to hack into other phones, and/or the government will use it to hack into other phones. Correct? > > Regards, > Shodan That’s functionally correct - the part that gets glossed over is getting that update onto a locked phone - as well as once that update (that allows the brute force attack to work) is on the phone(s) - how it will be used by others later. (There are multiple aspects to the request - the ‘allowing brute force’ must be in the OS of the phone (change the overall security model) - then there is something which would enable that feature that is external, since the phone is locked, let alone the method to do the brute force itself has to be allowed (keyboard, usb thing, etc). And you have to do all of this to a currently locked device. Secondly - and a very valid concern - is that if they (Apple, others) do it “just this once and for this specific phone (perse)” - exactly how that will open the floodgates to these kinds of requests. Lastly - while Apple’s repuation is one thing to be concerned with - its the last on my list overall. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327.md?page=6)