# Apple's open letter to the U.S. Gov't refusing to comply: lines drawn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 17, 2016, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327 "2016-02-17T11:40:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/101 "2016-02-18T21:24:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > By my data being insured secure - then these fools can’t get to it - end of story. Frankly, the security of your data is of no consequence to me if keeping it secure means innocent lives will be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/102 "2016-02-18T21:26:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Please go post about something you actually understand - **somewhere else** - because, you simply don’t get it. > [@simster](#): > > **Then maybe you ought to do some fucking reading** - in this and the other thread - that talks to the complexitiy of this problem instead of just continuing to wallow in your ignorance. > [@simster](#): > > **and your fucking clueless** - you think that if the iphone has an exploit, these guys will suddenly ‘stop’ ??? All bolding is mine. Dial it down, please. You’re free to disagree and argue about it, but keep it civil. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/103 "2016-02-18T21:32:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Frankly, the security of your data is of no consequence to me if keeping it secure means innocent lives will be lost. and your opinion that somehow easing security will ‘save lives’ is of absolutely no value or consequence. Have a pleasant day - I’m done dealing with your frightful levels of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/104 "2016-02-18T21:53:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The FBI wants Apple to write an adhoc to hack into this phone to disable the “feature” that erases all data after 10 failed logins. Correct? And the worry is that this adhoc will get out, and hackers will be able to hack into other phones, and/or the government will use it to hack into other phones. Correct? They want Apple to write the code so that it works for this phone only by checking for the phone’s unique ID. So even if this got out, it wouldn’t work on any other iPhone. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/105 "2016-02-18T22:01:57Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Frankly, the security of your data is of no consequence to me if keeping it secure means innocent lives will be lost. By that logic, you should be willing to scrap most of the Bill of Rights. I have no doubt that innocents have occasionally died because of many of the amendments therein - most notably the fourth and fifth amendments. If we allow unreasonable searches and seizures, I’m sure we could save a lot of lives, and if defendants are required to serve as witnesses for the prosecution, I’m sure we could save many more. You might want to ask former residents of East Germany and Soviet Russia for their impressions of life under such circumstances. Are you unwilling to incur even an infinitesimal amount of risk to your life so that you can enjoy a life free from massive amounts of government interference? One last point: is the security of _your_ data of any consequence to you? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/106 "2016-02-18T22:15:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > They want Apple to write the code so that it works for this phone only by checking for the phone’s unique ID. So even if this got out, it wouldn’t work on any other iPhone. I’ll say it again - while that may be the request - that is not neccisarily hwo it wouold work or be implimented. First - you ahve to get the phones Unique ID. And as I also said earlier - the request, in order to get it past the judge to begin with, has to be ‘on the surface’ intended for only the specific device in question - that order does not take into account the technical feasiblitly of that. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/107 "2016-02-18T22:48:04Z")
Sigh, the amount of misinformation is staggering… > [@simster](#): > > I’ll say it again - while that may be the request - that is not neccisarily hwo it wouold work or be implimented. > > First - you ahve to get the phones Unique ID. Which they have. It’s in the court’s order. > [@simster](#): > > And as I also said earlier - the request, in order to get it past the judge to begin with, has to be ‘on the surface’ intended for only the specific device in question - that order does not take into account the technical feasiblitly of that. If it’s not technically feasible then Apple can object on those grounds. However, it almost certainly is. The consensus for those in the know is that this is a trivial task to accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/108 "2016-02-19T12:32:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > They want Apple to write the code so that it works for this phone only by checking for the phone’s unique ID. So even if this got out, it wouldn’t work on any other iPhone. Thanks. I am a programmer, although not for phones or anything like that. I am assuming that the code to hack would integrate the unique ID more deeply than just IF uniqueID eq ‘hardcodedvaluewegotfromthesearchwarrant’ THEN move HighValues to NumberOfPossibleRetriesBeforeErasing END-IF FOR I 1 to 9999 MOVE I to PassWord PERFORM UnlockPhone(Password) IF PhoneUnlocked ESCAPE END-IF END-FOR So that hackers who got hold of it couldn’t just comment out the first line. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/109 "2016-02-19T17:53:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. I am a programmer, although not for phones or anything like that. > > I am assuming that the code to hack would integrate the unique ID more deeply than just > > IF uniqueID eq ‘hardcodedvaluewegotfromthesearchwarrant’ > THEN move HighValues to NumberOfPossibleRetriesBeforeErasing > END-IF > FOR I 1 to 9999 > MOVE I to PassWord > PERFORM UnlockPhone(Password) > IF PhoneUnlocked > ESCAPE > END-IF > END-FOR > > So that hackers who got hold of it couldn’t just comment out the first line. > > Regards, > Shodan No it’d be that simple. If the hackers can remove the ID check then they already have the keys to the kingdom. In other words, if they can disable this security check then they can disable the retry count as well. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/110 "2016-02-19T18:06:32Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > By that logic, you should be willing to scrap most of the Bill of Rights. Most of the Bill of Rights is reactionary and rooted in 18th century fears that aren’t relevant to this country in this century. > [@](#): > > I have no doubt that innocents have occasionally died because of many of the amendments therein - most notably the fourth and fifth amendments. If we allow unreasonable searches and seizures, I’m sure we could save a lot of lives, and if defendants are required to serve as witnesses for the prosecution, I’m sure we could save many more. You might want to ask former residents of East Germany and Soviet Russia for their impressions of life under such circumstances. East Germany and Soviet Russia weren’t bad places to live because of mass surveillance - they were bad places to live because of what that mass surveillance was used _for_. > [@](#): > > Are you unwilling to incur even an infinitesimal amount of risk to your life so that you can enjoy a life free from massive amounts of government interference? Surveillance poses no “interference” in my life. I’m not doing anything that would warrant being surveilled in the first place, and if I were, I wouldn’t know it was happening until I got caught doing something illegal, at which point I no longer have a right to not be “interfered” with anyway. > [@](#): > > One last point: is the security of _your_ data of any consequence to you? If my data is compromised, I trust that the government will make the people responsible pay. That’s their job. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/111 "2016-02-20T18:06:17Z")
**Smapti** just sent really big chills down by back. Egad. Trust the government??? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/112 "2016-02-20T23:21:54Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If my data is compromised, I trust that the government will make the people responsible pay. That’s their job. Even if the people responsible are some kids in a Chinese or Russian internet cafe? (which most likely is what it would be) How do you envision that working, exactly? Please just give a brief step-by-step process of how the US Government is going to “bring them to justice”, or whatever you envision. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/113 "2016-02-22T00:53:45Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > **Smapti** just sent really big chills down by back. Egad. > > Trust the government??? this plus. Haven’t looked at the GD thread yet, but so far it seems to me the core issue isn’t tech, its constitutional and social, the right to privacy, come on, do you really think this will be a one time thing if the gvt prevails in this case? And someone upthread mentioned slavery, government compulsion of an entity to do their work for them? there are terrorists, there are Terrorists and then there is Government. the only difference imho is the thin skin of legitimacy afforded to Government. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/114 "2016-02-22T16:27:04Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > **Smapti** just sent really big chills down by back. Egad. Peeling back the synthskin to show the steel does tend to have that effect: [QUOTE=Isaac Asimov] “What is your definition of justice?” “Justice, Elijah, is that which exists when all the laws are enforced.” Fastolfe nodded. “A good definition, Mr. Baley, for a robot. The desire to see all laws enforced has been built into R. Daneel, now. Justice is a very concrete term to him since it is based on law enforcement, which is in turn based upon the existence of specific and definite laws. There is nothing abstract about it. A human being can recognize the fact that, on the basis of an abstract moral code, some laws may be bad ones and their enforcement unjust. What do you say, R. Daneel?” “An unjust law,” said R. Daneel evenly, “is a contradiction in terms.” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/115 "2016-02-22T23:55:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Most of the Bill of Rights is reactionary and rooted in 18th century fears that aren’t relevant to this country in this century. It was written based on basic human rights and privacy hasn’t changed one micron from the day the document was conceived. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/116 "2016-02-23T00:26:24Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Most of the Bill of Rights is reactionary and rooted in 18th century fears that aren’t relevant to this country in this century. > > East Germany and Soviet Russia weren’t bad places to live because of mass surveillance - they were bad places to live because of what that mass surveillance was used _for_. > > Surveillance poses no “interference” in my life. I’m not doing anything that would warrant being surveilled in the first place, and if I were, I wouldn’t know it was happening until I got caught doing something illegal, at which point I no longer have a right to not be “interfered” with anyway. > > If my data is compromised, I trust that the government will make the people responsible pay. That’s their job. I hope this is some satirical reference that I am just not getting. If not, I think you just showed quite well (to the rest of us at least) why we do have valid reasons to be fearful. I honestly didn’t think that any Americans had such a belief system in real life. Please tell me that you are joking for effect. If not, I agree that is probably the scariest thing you will ever write. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327/117 "2016-02-23T17:11:07Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No it’d be that simple. If the hackers can remove the ID check then they already have the keys to the kingdom. In other words, if they can disable this security check then they can disable the retry count as well. It’s not that simple. You can’t load a version of iOS onto an iPhone unless it’s signed by Apple (or unless the phone is exploited/jailbroken). If someone were to get ahold of the full source code of iOS, it would be pretty easy for them to remove various security features and build whatever they wanted. Even without the source code, developers of reasonable skill could probably disassemble the OS and disable various features. But it wouldn’t matter unless they had Apple’s private key to sign the build, because no iPhone would accept the update. So, Apple _could_ do something as simple as the above code, and the fact that it’s a single line to edit out (or a few instructions to patch over) wouldn’t really matter, as long as Apple’s private key stays secure. The danger is not that whatever Apple might build here will directly leak out. The danger is that if the FBI can force Apple to make this hack for them for this case, then they can force it for any case. And so can the Chinese, and any other significantly powerful country. The question is: Do we want to live in a world where it’s possible to have effective personal security and encryption, or a world where _every_ government (not just the “good guys”) gets to read all your private documents? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/apples-open-letter-to-the-u-s-govt-refusing-to-comply-lines-drawn/746327.md?page=5)